Hydrogenated??

[SoapDiva]

I use h. palm & palm kernal oil in my soaps.

Twice over this last weekend at a show I was told by people that hydrogenated oils are bad, I said, yes, when you eat them. Of course, I got the "the skin is the largest organ in the body" so it's the same thing.

I did some research on this, and from what I understand hydrogenated oils are indeed bad, but I could find nothing on using them on your skin.

Can anyone enlighten me?

:embarasse

[CareBear]

the skin is selectively porous - otherwise we wouldn't have to eat, we could just rub the food all over ourselves... And we'd gain weight when we put on lotions and body butters LOL!

even meds being delivered through the skin have to be mixed with very specific, select solvents to bring them through the barrier.

hydrogenated fats are not absorbed through the skin.

[Jo Ann]

they are really bad ingested as carebear said, but i think once it goes thru the sap process, i would think that would release that extra hydrogen atom so it is lost or utilized some other way. I don't know and it would be good to find out, cuz alot of cosmetics are used from the junk left over from processing oils for human consumption and thats the stuff that gets the extra atom to make them solid and usable.

hydrogenated is what causes the plaque to build up in the arteries and around organs and stuff. but i am thinking, since its from an added hydrogen atom, then that atom should be released thru the heating process. even if not, i don't think it would get past the derma barrier

[Jo Ann]

well, you can't use hydrog. oil in green cars, or for heating fuel or making fire logs....i am assumng heat releases that extra atom and becomes a green house gas itself. so if we use hydrog oil in soap, we are probably releasing green house gas in the process. but as for our skin, don't think it matters. plus you probably don't need to use hyrdrogenated in the ingredients after the soap is made.

so i think what it comes down to, if you want to be green don't use it. :rolleyes2

[GrandmaArial]

The first stage of the saponification process releases the glycerin molecule breaking the triglyceride down to monoglycerides which bond with the Na ions to make soap. It isn’t oil anymore. No problem. If you super fat at 5% an average 4 oz bar would have about 1.5 gm oil, so if you used all hydrogenated oil that would be 1.5 gm hydrogenated oil per bar. Divide that by the average umber of uses you get from a bar of the soap, that will be the average “dose” of oil you would be exposed to per use. If you use only a protein hydrogenated oils then that will be the percentage that may still exist (I personally doubt much can survive the heat from the process, look at what Crisco is like after a single use to fry).

If someone is that worried about exposing themselves to evil hydrogenated oil then (and I will point out that I’m a witch with a capital “B”) point out to them all the toxins they are exposing themselves to by using the commercially produced hydrocarbon based “soaps” and cleaners they are currently using, and point out these cleaners are made from the same petroleum gasoline is made out of.

[Jo Ann]

goodgramma!

i just don't want to ingest the darn stuff....ig. of course my total cholesteral and trig. are in the high 300s so i try hard to read labels. ;-)

[Camay]

Jo An, you've got the biology correct (won't cross skin barrier, builds up plaques), but you've got the chemistry way wrong.

As GrandmaArial said, in saponification the strong base (NaOH) attacks the ester group that links the fatty acid to the glycerol (also known as glycerin). This releases glycerol, and the sodium carboxylate of the fatty acid.

Any hydrogens that have been added on to the long-chain fatty acid previous to the saponification reaction are not affected by the NaOH, so they remain intact. The heat generated by this process is not enough to break the chemical bonds that hold the hydrogens on to the long-chain.

Also, hydrogen, or diatomic hydrogen, is not a greenhouse gas.

[Jo Ann]

only if its let loose into the atmosphere, besides, i was just thinking out loud, assuming that may be what happens. cuz you can;t use hydrogenated fats for fuel. i just figured they used heat to add the atom and so maybe heat released it...i haven't studied up on it. would have in my younger days, but too much bother now:D

[SoapDiva]

Thanks everyone, I'm useless when it comes to chemistry, I had the husband look it up to explain it to me, and all I heard was *blah blah blah blah* - he has the degree in it - mine is in psychology so I'm no good with that stuff.

we could just rub the food all over ourselves...

*snicker* love this answer.

I think I will be dropping the hydrogenated stuff from my line, some of the stuff that the DH read to me wasn't the greatest. I wonder what, if anything it might be doing to our skin besides cleaning it. Better to be safe than to find out down the line that it can harm.

[topofmurrayhill]

Why would palm or palm kernel oils be hydrogenated? They are already solid or semi-solid products with a high proportion of saturated fatty acids. I may be wrong, but I don't think any hydrogenation is done in the normal production of these oils.

I believe CareBear provided the pertinent answer. Saturated fats, trans-fats, and all that junk are issues in nutrition. Residual oil in soap is not a nutritional issue. The concern is preposterous.

[SoapDiva]

Hydrogenation stabilizes the oils from what little I understand of the process. The husband explained it from a molecular POV, going on to talk about atoms and binding and extracting, at which point I napped.

I agree that it's silly to worry about it on one hand, being that we apply it to the skin. But on the other, we used to think that trans fats etc were OK too.

I've eliminated a lot of these from our diet at home, so it makes sense to do so with my soap too. I'm slowly switching to un-refined products.

Those ladies just threw me for a loop with their claims and I thought perhaps I was missing something, so I came here for your wisdom.

[soycrazy]

Hydrogen is number 1 on the periodic table of elements. That means it is lighter and less dense than all other matter in the known universe. If released into the atmosphere it floats straight up until it literally flys into space! That leaves only trace amounts of hydrogen remaining in the atmosphere so it cannot act as a greenhouse gas.

[topofmurrayhill]

I've eliminated a lot of these from our diet at home, so it makes sense to do so with my soap too.

I'm sorry, but no it doesn't make sense. It's preposterous. Soap is made from fats and oils. Every oil can be analyzed from a nutritional point of view. People are concerned about saturated fats in palm oil, coconut oil, lard, etc. They're concerned about trans-fats in hydrogenated oils like Crisco and "soy wax". There are good oils, bad oils, controvesial oils. There are essential fatty acids and non-essential fatty acids. There are ratios of omega-3, omega-6, omega-9. Applying all this to soapmaking (not to mention global warming) is, to put it succinctly, retarded.

[Jo Ann]

actually (hopefully?) hydrogenated will be outlawed soon in foods. because its becoming obvious this is a main culprit in blocking arteries. its becoming the main link in foods for ppl who have really cut back on cholesterol but the triglycedrides remain so high.

[CareBear]

yea, and soon after hopefully they will outlaw bacon and butter!

[Rebecca]

What I always found interesting at the craft shows etc. is when people asked about ingredients and being careful about what they put on their skin cause they didn't want to use anything "unhealthy" are many times the ones stuffing their faces with elephant ears and colas w/ having enough chemicals in hair spray, mouses, make up and perfume to basically reduce themselves to toxic slug and they worry about a fat in soap.:rolleyes2

I guess they figure if they have this "knowledge" about ingredients for the skin and stay away from that "bad" stuff they have one upped themselves on the health ladder and the elephant ears can slide as a food group. They'll ingest it but they just won't put it on their skin.roflao

[Jadryga]

I don't see why cutting hydrogenated fat in your diet should lead to cutting hydrogenated fat in your soaps. The first makes sense to me, the second doesn't. Smearing butter on your skin is not going to clog your arteries. It may leave your skin softer and smoother, but it definitely will not give you heart problems.

[GrandmaArial]

A while back the evil oil was cholesterol. It seemed everyone climbed on that bandwagon… and indeed a high LDL (low density lipids) level is a sign of trouble. What have we learned in the last 30 years? That HDLs (at that time lumped in with LDLs as cholesterol) lowers LDL levels, and low LDL levels are just as dangerous as high levels. With out what is being termed these days “bad” cholesterol your veins and artery walls can become so weak an aneurism is almost guaranteed we also now know that very little dietary cholesterol affects cholesterol blood levels but rather most people with high cholesterol have a genetic predisposition and/or a lack of HDLs and/or soluble fiber in their diets. Back then triglycerides were the wonder oil. Oh how things have changed.

My philosophy is taken from my mother whose favorite saying was “all good things in moderation”. An occasional piece of candy is not going to hurt most people, even with diabetes if it is calculated in to the diet responsibly. Of course occasional doesn’t mean a lb of chocolates a day. In the same way many things we know are good for us, like vitamin A can be fatal if over done. Yes, good old beta carotene and retinol. While it is difficult to OD on beta carotene as a healthy body will automatically filter out excess amounts here in the US there are still several deaths a year, mostly infants and elderly, but still people will gobble down huge mega doses because it has a reputation of being good for you and if a little is good lots must be better. Retinol is not so easily eliminated from the body resulting in a far higher rate of over dose yet people not only gobble it down in supplements but think nothing about slathering it on their skin (and retinol is one of the substances that crossed the skin barrier) to look younger with out a second thought. But then people will have themselves injected with botox… which was originally developed for chemical warfare and is botulism toxins. Not the botulism organism it’s self, but the toxins it produces that produce the symptoms of botulism food poisoning. All in the quest for ever lasting beauty… but they worry about hydrogenated fats in soap. This doesn’t make sense to me.

As I see it there is nothing wrong with hydrogenated fats in moderation. Hydrogenated fat is more resistant to rancidity, keeps fried foods fresher longer and you can fry at higher temperatures (which lessens the amount of oils absorbed thereby keeping the total caloric count lower). I like Crisco for frying which I mix 50/50 with soybean oil. Of course we only have fried food an average of once a month or less. Olive oil, which is the new “wonder” oil (and which I love) has a low smoke point so if you fry with it you have to cook at a much lower temperature. Yes, olive oil is a HDL oil and is good for you but it also a fat chock full of calories like any oil and will cause excessive weight gain if not consumed in moderation. We do not have to live in an all or nothing world. We can choose to use oils in moderation like we can choose all behaviors in our lives. Do not blame the substance but your own indulgences in it if you have a problem. And please, do not decide that something needs to be outlawed because you have a problem with it. You can choose to modify your diet; you can choose to not use hydrogenated oils in your soap. That is your choice. Don’t try to make that choice for me and I in return will not try to force my lifestyle on you.

[kidsngarden]

I know I may get flack from this but come one folks - soap is a WASH off product. It is meant to cleanse - While it will leave our skin wonderful - It's not a lotion that we rub in for awhile. And while it may be debatable how much your skin absorbs during washing it really cannot be that much - and considering that all those oils become soap - it's not a combination of palm, pko, etc. - but SOAP it is really a non issue. Because of the saponification we are not even required to list the ingredients in soap anyway (though I do) so it wouldn't even be neccessary to list the palm as hydrogenated if it was that big of deal. These questions are coming from a customer that has no understanding of saponification and I tell you that is so very rarely happens that people ask me these sorts of questions that are mere technicalities anyway.

Bethany

[Roxanne]

Most palm kernel oil sold in the U.S. is partially hydrogenated, presumably to raise the melting point. (Oils By Nature does sell non-hydrogenated PKO.) Hydrogenated palm oil, on the other hand, is hard to come by. Columbus Foods sells homogenized palm, not hydrogenated. Homogenization is a completely different process that does not change the oil chemically.

As far as worrying about absorbing trans-fats through the skin, from any product but particularly from soap, count me in the camp that considers it ridiculous.