Narrow vs. Wide Cut

[Henryk]

This is all starting to finally come together after reading Donita's posts again from her earlier experiments. It seems like what I want to try to use is a narrow cut as opposed to a wide cut, in order to NOT get the overall granite appearance. Is this correct?

Secondly, can one identify the "cut" by looking at either the MSDS or the PDS? If so, how? (I'm guessing "needle penetration" - but I have no idea what that means).

Finally, am I correct in guessing that 1343 and 1274 are both wide cut paraffins?

Thanks!

[Donita]

Henry, I just posted some info on the other thread......and it isn't just the cut that gives you the different mottle. The mottling waxes are designed to mottle.....just by looking at them...hehehe.....so of course they are going to mottle..mottle mottle because that is what customers want. Consistent mottle. But.....if you are crazy like us....we don't want that look. So it is back to the old fashioned way of doing it. Add FO to plain wax.....it will mottle but randomly....a lot of people don't like that. I do. Oh...I like them all, but I can't do everything....or I guess I can....it's my life...hehehe Back in the old days of candlemaking, no one wanted the mottle....things sure have changed. The addition of 3% steric makes a nice mottle too. It lightens the color too.....every color and FO seems to have a mind of its own.....and about the green....I read that in a candlebook from the 70's. or maybe the 60's....I forgot the name, but it is popular and it is in my studio and I am in the office in the house. I guess there is something that they have to add to make greens.....and I guess all greens aren't created the same....just one more thing to worry about......Donita

[Henryk]

mmmm.... s t u d i o. (homer voice).

Makes sense - thanks once again.

[Donita]

It's Easy to make candles by Gary V. Guy. 1974....page 4

"Also, certain dyes inhibit mottling. Green, for example, allows only very small mottles to form." Maybe greens are made a different way now. Donita

[topofmurrayhill]

Whether you get overall granite or a more random look depends on how much the wax mottles. This is determined by the amount of liquid in the wax and the cooling process. If you have a wax that does a solid overall mottle, decreasing the degree of mottling should result in a patchier effect.

Thus there isn't just one look you can get from a particular wax. However, there is a tremendous variation in style from one wax to another. Some hardly want to mottle at all. Some tend towards more patchy and some towards more even. Some have a finer grain and some have a coarser grain. Some mottle right to the surface and in others the mottling stays below the surface.

To the extent that I can determine what the hydrocarbon distribution of a wax might be like, I haven't noticed any correlation with mottling properties. With the one wax that I am absolutely confident is a very narrow cut wax, I was hardly able to get any mottle at all. That isn't what I would have predicted. You just have to try each wax and see what you get.

You should understand that there is no simple way to express the hydrocarbon distribution of a wax and that's one reason the results are unpredictable. They aren't just broad cut or narrow cut at a particular melting point. Especially since some of them are blended, they can have any combination of variously sized paraffin molecules in various proportions. They can also have various proportions of the "oddball" molecules like iso-paraffins, which greatly affects mottling properties. The possible combinations are infinite and each wax is a very unique recipe.

[topofmurrayhill]

Having said all that about hydrocarbon distribution and mottling in the previous post, I'd like to respond separately to the question of whether you can determine the broadness of the "cut" based on the product data.

If you were interested in this information, the manufacturer could feasibly express it to you directly by telling you the range of molecular sizes of the paraffin molecules and what size it's centered on. We aren't provided with that information, maybe because people generally don't need it, sometimes it can be complicated, and for most wax products the manufacturer neither needs nor wants to maintain the level of consistency that would imply.

However, if you put much stock in the information they DO give you (I wouldn't go too far in assuming it's accurate), then you can infer broad or narrow cut in a few ways. Narrow cuts maintain their hardness more with increasing temperature, so you could possibly glean some information in those cases where they provide hardness at both 77 F and 100 F.

I think the easier way to make the inference is from viscosity. At a given melting point, a broader cut will have a greater viscosity than a narrow cut. On the attached chart of some IGI waxes, you can see that the viscosity (gooeyness) of the liquid wax (the line) increases with melting point (the bars), but there are variations. Where you see a dip in the line we should be looking at a narrower cut. For instance, IGI 1246 is specifically marketed as a narrow cut wax and you can clearly see it. This chart also suggests that 1343 and 1274 are narrow cuts.

[Henryk]

Got it. So it seems like I simply need to look at a different wax. (There would be no point in reducing the oil content if what you get is simply the same - but less of it.)

Thanks!

EDIT: WOW- just saw what you posted. So I am ALREADY using narrow cut waxes. From the info you posted then, I should simply forget about the cut since that is not indicative of how or how much a wax mottles, and just try the different waxes to see what the style (grain, depth, and eveness) of thier particular mottling patterns are.

[topofmurrayhill]

Got it. So it seems like I simply need to look at a different wax. (There would be no point in reducing the oil content if what you get is simply the same - but less of it.)

Thanks!

EDIT: WOW- just saw what you posted. So I am ALREADY using narrow cut waxes. From the info you posted then, I should simply forget about the cut since that is not indicative of how or how much a wax mottles, and just try the different waxes to see what the style (grain, depth, and eveness) of thier particular mottling patterns are, correct?

As far as I know I would agree with all of that. I would maybe add that I don't mean to understate the variety of looks you can get with one particular wax. Cooling under different conditions or simply in different kinds of molds can definitely create variations. Fragrance oils interact with the wax in ways that are different enough to create distinct variations. I think that even just adjusting the degree of mottling precisely enough can make very different aesthetic impressions.

[Henryk]

Well, the one thing I am doing is testing everything with Parol oil to at least keep that factor a constant. (Not mentioning that I get board real easy with any FO).

Thanks again for all your assistance.

[Donita]

Thanks Top.....I love to pick your brain too. Donita

[sharyl55]

OK Mr. Top. If I'm reading the chart correctly I should expect mottling from the 1246 but none or very little from the 1260 hurricane wax right? Still not sure how to get the cloudy mottle you and Donita achieved in the BBB dupe. Back to study the IGI paper on mottling.

[topofmurrayhill]

OK Mr. Top. If I'm reading the chart correctly I should expect mottling from the 1246 but none or very little from the 1260 hurricane wax right? Still not sure how to get the cloudy mottle you and Donita achieved in the BBB dupe. Back to study the IGI paper on mottling.

Actually I wouldn't read anything from the chart about mottling. I don't find it to be that predictable. 1343, 1274 and 1246 all seem to be narrow cuts but two of them mottle fine and the third doesn't. Other broader cuts mottle fine too. Basically I don't think narrow or broad cut has much bearing on it by itself. The presence of iso-paraffins in the mix may be a much bigger deal.

BTW I think you are reading 1260 as a broad cut wax and I wouldn't assume that. It has a high viscosity because of the high melt point. But it's the only such high MP wax on the chart so there's nothing to compare it to. In reality it mottles fine.