Tin Caught Fire, Again!!

[bugtussle]

Well, just got a report from one of my stores. Customer came in and reported one of my 6 Oz Tins caught fire and was very difficult to extinquish. All I know about it is that it was a "close-out" tin. She didn't leave name, phone #, or burned tin. Yes, I believe it could happen, I just wish she had left details and tin. In 5 years of making close to 40,000 tins, I have had 3 confirmed fires. In each case, the customer (my daughter, my aunt, and an owner of a boutique shop in central Texas,) had left the candle burning over 8 hrs and tin was over half gone when it was lit. I, personally, have never been able to catch one on fire with just burning; I did use a heat gun on one and got it to burn. It was not the fo, but the wax burning. The fo was long gone due to overheating of tin. I have had one customer whose glass container broke and spread hot wax, but no fire.

I have insurance thank the Good Lord & unless she contacts me personally, don't know if it really happened. I take every instance of a fire very seriously and if she contacts me will get circumstances.

You as candlemakers should know that this can happen & you should have insurance along with a very clear warning label. I know a lot of candle lovers ignore the warnings and abuse the rules, but that is just the way it is. A lit candle IS a very dangerous object and some people just don't want to believe it. Carole

[sharyl55]

Thanks for the heads up Carole. You made several valid points. It is a scary situation when something like that happens. It happened to me one time when I was testing a new container - a Dollar General find. Needless to say I trashed all of them. Hope everyone reads your post.

[Stella1952]

:shocked2: Scary stuff, eh Carole? Are you using wicks with retainer bases? I have worried about this with both glass and tin containers, especially if the retainer base can move around... I have never had one of my candles catch on fire, but that doesn't mean later on today won't be the day...

I sure wish the container had been returned to you so that you could hopefully examine it to get some idea of how this occurred... Did this happen because the temperature down in that tin got high enough to reach the flashpoint of the wax?

I hope that nothing was harmed by the flaming tin...:undecided

[bugtussle]

I use retainer bases with at least 1/4" neck. As far as I know, no damage occured. I do wish the candle had been returned. No way to investigate it.

I am sure it was the wax. The ones I did recover previously didn't have any wax left. All candle waxes will ignite if they get hot enough. I'm not sure going to a 1/2" neck would have helped, maybe. Carole

[Sally]

May I ask what the offending wax was?

Any wax will get too hot if left to it's own devices for too long so they are all potential fire bombs, I'm just curious.

I haven't had it happen to me & I'm known to let my tins burn on long past anything that could be called safe or sensible.

Sally.

[BruceCarvesWax]

I'm going to repeat what I have said here before, I think its when they trim the wick and don't take the wick "droppings" out of the melt pool. When the candle burns down low enough the wick trimmings catch back on fire and THATS what raises the temp of the wax high enough to catch the whole darn thing on fire. I don't think it has to do with wax type or fragrance oil as much as the wick.

Bruce

[TwinMom]

I'm going to repeat what I have said here before, I think its when they trim the wick and don't take the wick "droppings" out of the melt pool. When the candle burns down low enough the wick trimmings catch back on fire and THATS what raises the temp of the wax high enough to catch the whole darn thing on fire. I don't think it has to do with wax type or fragrance oil as much as the wick.

Bruce

True that! I know someone who continually did that and yep the tin caught fire.

[roady]

My niece made some tin candles and left one burning. It burned her bathroom up. Thank goodness they woke up in time before a horrible disaster.

[tangerine]

I'm going to repeat what I have said here before, I think its when they trim the wick and don't take the wick "droppings" out of the melt pool. When the candle burns down low enough the wick trimmings catch back on fire and THATS what raises the temp of the wax high enough to catch the whole darn thing on fire. I don't think it has to do with wax type or fragrance oil as much as the wick.

Bruce

Bruce,

I guess it follows then that this can happen with glass as well? Although I know tins can get much hotter than glass.

[Sharon in PA]

Bruce,

I guess it follows then that this can happen with glass as well? Although I know tins can get much hotter than glass.

That's what this has me wondering now, I thought tins-without the risk of glass heating too much and cracking-were generally safer???

[bugtussle]

I do believe most tins are safer, but all candles are FIRE! I just think people let their guard down and begin to trust them too much. When I see someone abusing a candle and all the wax turns to liquid and the flame is jumping out of control, my heart skips a beat. I don't care where I am, I go blow it out. Carole

Edited to say - I don't know if it was my 223/soy combo or my 6006 wax. Wish I knew the scent and wick.

[silkysoycreations]

Thx for sharing your story and letting us know what could happen to all of us one day. Unfortuntetly we can't watch our customers burn our candles and see what they maybe doing wrong.

[Oh-MYo]

I have had this happen with wick trimmings too at the very bottom of a glass container. It cracked the glass.

Mind you, I was there at the time and watching. I intended to burn ALL the wax from the container before cleaning it out. I have done this many times, burned all the wax till there wasnt so much as a drop of wax for the wick to suck up. Its what I do, my choice. I certainly cant fault the candle maker for what I have done.

However, I learned of the super flammability of wick trimmings in these amounts only through personal direct experience.

Burning a candle entails a certain amount of self responsibility of course. Just as we cant buy firewood and then blame the seller cuz it caught on fire.

Perhaps warning labels could contain some of the "whys" of the DOs and DONTs. Something like: "extinguish candle when it has burned to the last 3/4" due to increased fire hazard from wick trimmings or fragrance oils"

Just a thought.

[banirs]

We had two test 6oz tins catch fire. tins from WSP Tulip fo from NG. and lx12 wicks. Marathon burns, wick too long and low anount of wax in tin. Stopped selling all tins till this is figured out. Even if candle is improperly burned and many that are sold will be, a candle catching fire to a customer is bad business.

[bugtussle]

This is my warning label:

" LEAD FREE PRODUCT For your safety & enjoyment: Never leave a burning candle unattended. Keep out of reach of children and pets. Keep wax free of matches & other flammable material. Please handle with care & do not move tin while candle is burning or wax is hot. Protect surface it is placed on. Keep wick trimmed to 1/4 inch. Burn for only 3 hours at a time and discard when there is less than 1/2 inch of wax left in tin. If last 1/2 inch gets too hot, it could ignite. Remember a burning candle is fire! Neither the seller nor the manufacturer are responsible for misuse."

I added the discard stmt after the first problem. I just wish customers would read "warning label." Carole

BANIRS, you are correct! It is bad business! Not sure there is an answer.

[so-soy]

I have had the tin tealight cups catch on fire in my burners before. It has happened on two different occasions. These were just tealights I had purchased from a local discount store. I believe the reason they caught fire was because the small amount of wax towards the bottom of the burn just gets way to hot and the wax in the tin just combusts. There was nothing in these like old wick clippings..heck, the wicks in these tea lights are so dang small I don't believe there is even any thing to trim if you are between burns.

[bugtussle]

So-soy, all I can say is WOW!!! Thank you for posting that info. I have been worried about that also because I have had ceramic pots crack before, just never ignite. I really think it is the tremendous heat generated in a confined area that reachs that combustion point in any wax and ignites. I also think combustion is possible with an electric warmer. Most of my customers (especially my daughter & her friends just leave it on continuously.) I don't think the "flash point" in wax is as significant as the combustion point. My understanding is that in a flash point, a flame must be introduced. I hope someone will clarify that. We know what heating Wesson Oil (soy wax, or any kind of oil) on an electric cooktop can do. Now I have done that before.

In retrospect, as I post for the 1000th time, I realize how little I know and how much more I have to learn in this business. Thks CandleTech. Carole

[ShelleyBean]

In retrospect, as I post for the 1000th time, I realize how little I know and how much more I have to learn in this business. Thks CandleTech. Carole

I wanted to quote this part because as I read through this thread, I have learned a lot. I still call myself a newbie and learn so much from this board. I'm sorry this happened and wish you could have got the tin back to inspect it, but I sure appreciate you and others posting things like this.

I have a question on the tin issue, right now all I do in tins is wickless, and I have heated them on everything from the coffee cup warmer to the 2 piece electric and taking the cup off and just using the base, and leave them on for very long periods of time to make sure they dont flame up. Do you all think that the wickless tins are still somewhat safe?

[bugtussle]

That is a really good question? Maybe Top, or Bruce or one of us can do some research and figure out what the combustion temp is for some of our waxes. I don't leave my Levine hot-plate warmers on while I'm not home or at night because they get REALLY hot. I was using one on Sunday with about one inch of wax. I pulled the plug because it was so hot. I didn't think it was safe. Carole

[BruceCarvesWax]

I have had the tin tealight cups catch on fire in my burners before. It has happened on two different occasions. These were just tealights I had purchased from a local discount store. I believe the reason they caught fire was because the small amount of wax towards the bottom of the burn just gets way to hot and the wax in the tin just combusts. There was nothing in these like old wick clippings..heck, the wicks in these tea lights are so dang small I don't believe there is even any thing to trim if you are between burns.

I think the reason for the tealights is the low mp cheap azz wax they use to make their tealights with. I have never has one of my tealights catch on fire but have heard many time of the store bought cheap ones looking like a can of sterno. The cheaper the wax the more oil content the lower the melting point and flash point. I am not sure that combustion and flash are seperate but they might be. I know that wax turns into a vapor at around 400F depending on the wax and thats what will catch on fire the vapor.

Bruce

[ShelleyBean]

That is a really good question? Maybe Top, or Bruce or one of us can do some research and figure out what the combustion temp is for some of our waxes. I don't leave my Levine hot-plate warmers on while I'm not home or at night because they get REALLY hot. I was using one on Sunday with about one inch of wax. I pulled the plug because it was so hot. I didn't think it was safe. Carole

I'm with you, on my heavy duty warmer I dont leave them on for long periods of time and I wont even leave my cup warmer type on when I'm not home. The cup warmer doesnt seem to get as hot as the others, but the tin itself is pretty darn hot, ask me how I know lol.

I have done really well with the wickless tins and even with having insurance, it scares the crap out of me thinking one of my products could cause someone to be harmed or something catch fire. I know we can only do so much with instructions, it seems we almost have to write a book anymore doesn't it?

[CareBear]

I thought the combustion point would be on the MSDSs, but apparently not. Oh well, the addition of the FO would change that anyway.

[GirlWithTheCurl]

I thought the combustion point would be on the MSDSs, but apparently not. Oh well, the addition of the FO would change that anyway.

Wax? Flash point is always indicated on the MSDS.

[bugtussle]

I wonder if a low flash point fo would lower the flash point of the wax. I'm just not smart enough to figure this out.

I power burned 6 candles (glass & tin) which all had extra wick clippings and they all burned themselves out. No fires. I pray it's just a "freak" occurance and that no one ever gets hurt. Carole

[CareBear]

probably. but even so, the flash points I saw for wax were about 500F.

"The flash point ... the lowest temperature at which it can form an ignitable mixture in air. " Wikipedia.com.

So it's not the temp at which the liquid wax burns - I think that is what was meant by "combustion point". But perhaps fire point is a more accurate term - "The fire point of a fuel is the temperature at which it will continue to burn after ignition for at least 5 seconds. At the flash point, a lower temperature, a substance will ignite, but vapor might not be produced at a rate to sustain the fire. Fire point and autogenous ignition are additional considerations when selecting fire resistant greases. Industrially, fire point is the lowest temperature at which industrial greases produce sufficient vapors to form a mixture in air that continuously supports combustion after ignition."