Moldy B&B Harmful?

[Kelly]

I haven't created any B&B products that grew mold but I was wondering if they mold that grows on B&B products is harmful in anyway?

[Bunny]

OMG yes.. It can make you go blind if it gets in your eyes.. And it's more than mold also, it's fungus and yeast.

[Kelly]

Totally scary! So how come so many people create products without using preservatives? Do they put expiration dates on their products? I've found several recipes that are mostly just oils and butters and no preservatives. Are people making these for personal use only?

[macnmyer]

It can also cause some serious skin infections too.

[blazerina]

I'm one of those dreaded cosmetics Representatives, lol.... the company I work with had a problem with some limited edition lip glosses getting mold. They said it was not harmful, but it created an astetic (visual) issue with the product since it was in a clear tube. They recommended that we send whatever we had ordered back to them for credit...but that it was ok to use if you didn't want to. I know it sounds crazy to say that it would have been ok to use on your lips, but perhaps it's more the strain or kind of mold that something has in it. There are different kinds and reasons for it and one can't really know unless they have a lab working for them to test it, lol. Therefore, this post is not very helpful to you, lol... sorry.

I will say that I did not know that it could be harmful to skin...interesting! It's just plain gross, but didn't know it could hurt me unless I ate it.

[Bunny]

http://healthandenergy.com/mold.htm

Everything you wanted to know about mold and more. It duscusses more molds that are inhaled, but read closely and you'll find what you need.

Kelly, if a product contains just oils and butters it shouldn't grow mold, as mold grows in water. Some choose to use it in their butter/oil products as the user may accidently introduce water to the product (wet fingers after a shower) to keep their customers safe.

And thanks Blaze, just another reason why I make my own stuff. Yuck. Even you say you didn't know it could hurt me unless I ate it, where is it going to go after it's on your lips? I know I lick my lips.

[doris]

Not everybody wants to use products that have preservatives in them. I will never make lotion to sell, because of the danger of spoilage; however I do know people that make it in small batches and use it up quickly. I also have made my own linen spray for years, out of our well water and EO, and have never had a problem with mold, even when it's been sitting for months, but I wouldn't sell it. I would sooner dump the occasional batch than spend a day of sewing inhaling a bottle full of preservatives every time I sprayed, and when I sew and press I spray a lot.

[Bunny]

Oh Doris, I totally agree. That's for your personal use. I believe what we choose to use on ourselves is totally different than what we can or should sell. Many disagree and go completely preservative free in everything they sale, and that is their right to choose the way they want their business to go. Lots of arguments both ways.

[mountainmadness]

That is EXACTLY why I do not sell lotion. The customer base that I have really like preservative free... but I will not sell a lotion without preservatives.

It is a huge liability IMO- too much or no preservatives when selling to the public is very dangerous and is a law suit waiting to happen!

[Kelly]

Will you know it's mold if you see it? Or can it be hidden in a product?

[beau's mama]

Will you know it's mold if you see it? Or can it be hidden in a product?

I've read that items like lotion can start to go "bad" even before you actually see anything. Anybody know anything about this?

[beau's mama]

...It is a huge liability IMO- too much or no preservatives when selling to the public is very dangerous and is a law suit waiting to happen!

Wow, interesting...anyone care to explain this to me like I'm a 2 yr old? It never occured to me that too much preservative could be a problem. And even with a preservative, how would you know how long the item is really safe? I mean, I have some things with experation dates, but none of them are lotion.

OK, am I making sense here?

Sharon

[RobinInOR]

Preservatives work by disrupting the cell wall of what they work against. Too much preservative can start acting on your skin cells the same way. It can be extremely irritating.

And yes, some of the worst things that happen are invisible. In soft items, mold is usually already growing it's filiments throughout the product before it shows up on top with it's fuzzies. You can trim mold off of hard food like cheeses because it *is* hard - mold doesn't grow easily inside. B&B items are soft and provide a nice soft medium to grow through.

The only way you can know for sure how long your item is really safe is by testing. Bunny mentioned "poor mans challenge test" in another thread. You can get an APC test (aerobic plate count) of a new bottle/jar, abuse it for a few months, and get a used bottle and another unopened bottle tested. That will tell you whether your preservative against growth is working.

[BLSoaps]

Preservatives have always been a touchy subject for me, something I feel very adamant about. I just posted within the scrubs thread, and a lot of it is very relevant here, so I'm copying parts of it.

Usually by the time you can tell that your lotion has gone bad, it's been bad for quite a while. It scares me how many people are so adamant about using no preservatives that they end up selling products that are potentially dangerous. And it scares me even more when they start saying they can do it because "Such-n-Such" company does it. Every once in a while, a self-preserving formula can be created, such a self-preserving lotion. However, the huge companies that do this, create these with incredibly high tech labs, and usually in clean rooms (think similar to hazmet suits & conditions, but to keep from tainting something rather than something tainting them). They spend insane amounts of money creating these formulas, and have tested and retested and retested to get them this way. And in my opinion, I still think it's a law suit waiting to happen. I know some companies have been sued. So they pull the offending product, tweak something just slightly so they can say it's a new product, and give it a new name, and put it back out on the market. Is it right or ethical? I don't think so, but obviously they don't care.

I'm sorry, like I said, this is a topic I feel very strongly about. Lotions are my specialty. Heck, they're my main source of income! I've studied (and still study) everything I could get my hands on when it comes to preservatives. I know a lot, but I know there's still a lot more out there. I talk frequently with ISP (manufacturer of many preservatives), and other experts in the field. And some of the information is startling, and others are downright terrifying. So please, preserve your products carefully, especially if you're selling.

And this is the post I left in the Scrubs Thread. Someone asked if she should add preservative to her scrub....

As for preservative, YES, PLEASE preserve it. You'll surely come across those that will say it doesn't need, since it doesn't have water in it. But most people use these in the shower or the bath. So the chances of water being introduced are very very good. And once water is introduced, the opportunity for mold and bacteria growth is outstanding.

A few tips regarding the preservatives, research them thoroughly, especially if you decide to go with an emulsified scrub. If using polysorbates as the emulsifier, it will gradually break down paraben based preservatives, and eventually render it ineffective. Not a good thing. However, you cannot just pick any old preservative. It needs to be one that will work properly in an anhydrous (no water) environment. I've stopped recommending preservatives because I believe the more people know about preserving their products, the better their products will become. Preservatives aren't fun, but they are, IMHO, the most crucial part of any formula. If your preservative isn't effective your product isn't just bad, it's dangerous.

A few places you can research. Lotioncrafter.com has a lot of information about preservatives on the site. Jen is wonderful and also willing to answer questions if you have them. I've also frequently gone directly to the manufacturer (ISP), and asked them questions. They also are incredibly helpful, and also will be the most accurate in their answers. Some suppliers will share information regarding using the preservatives they offer, but I've found that not all of them are correct.

Here's a good basic chart and guideline from ISP. It's far from all inclusive, and there are always factors and ingredients that this list doesn't incorporate, such as the polysorbates counteracting the parabens. It recommends various versions of LiquaPar for anhydrous products, but if your formula was emulsified using polysorbates, over time, your preservative would be broken down, and eventually fail. Not a good thing. So research research research, and then research a little more. It's overwhelming, but incredibly critical to producing a quality formula.

http://www.ispcorp.com/products/pres...ide/index.html

In case it breaks, try this...

http://tinyurl.com/la4nr

[Kelly]

Ok what about the bases that don't have preservatives? BCN Lip Balm base has no preservatives, what should I be adding to this?

Common Names:

1. Partially Hydrogenated Soybean Oil

2. Beeswax

3. Sunflower Oil

4. Cocoa Butter

5. Shea Butter

6. Vitamin E

INCI Names for labeling:

Glycine Soja (Soybean) Oil, Cera Alba (Beeswax), Helianthus Annus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Theobroma Cacao (Cocoa) Seed Butter, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter) Fruit, Tocopherol Acetate (Vitamin E).

[BLSoaps]

Ok what about the bases that don't have preservatives? BCN Lip Balm base has no preservatives

With things like this you don't need them. Anything with water needs a preservative. All oil bases that potentially have water coming into contact, and being left in the container (like scrubs, which are often used in the shower), need a preservative.

Items like lip balms or lotion sticks or lotion bars, do not need a preservative. Things like body butters (no water added ones), are at the makers discretion. Keep in mind the dirty or wet fingers could be used to scoop out the product, leaving tiny amounts of water or grime in the container. This could fester and become a breeding ground for nasties. I make a whipped shea butter that I currently don't add preservative to. If I start selling more of it wholesale, I may reconsider. Right now, I include detailed usage instructions, and explain the concerns about not having a preservative contained, and a disclaimer that we won't be held reliable for problems due to misuse of product. It very clearly states to use clean dry hands, or preferably a clean dry scoop, to remove the product from the container. I doubt many to use a scoop. I don't, and I'm the one who put the warning on it! LOL! But it helps to cover my butt in case someone is stupid with it. But like I said...if I start selling more of it, and it's sitting on store shelves more, I'll probably add a preservative.

[mountainmadness]

What scares me as about as much as people that sell and do not use preservatives is people that have no clue about the chemicals or herbs, etc. that they are using to preserve with.....

IMO- you cannot just add this in because someone from a board has suggested it. It is VERY dangerous. There are items that people use as preservatives that if the recommended amount is not followed can cause serious, irreversible damage to children and the elderly.

Nothing to take lightly to make a couple of bucks.

[Kelly]

Items like lip balms or lotion sticks or lotion bars, do not need a preservative. Things like body butters (no water added ones), are at the makers discretion. Keep in mind the dirty or wet fingers could be used to scoop out the product, leaving tiny amounts of water or grime in the container. This could fester and become a breeding ground for nasties.

Ok but some people apply lip balms with finger tips (lip balms in pots). I'm trying not to get too scared. For the most part I would use lotion bases but there are a few recipes I want to try that contain no water. But since I know nothing about preservatives, I could probably do some hard by adding perservatives and by not adding it! I guess, I could always include the disclaimer as you do, but that seems like a lot of information to add to a label!

Thanks for all the info it has been very VERY helpful to me!

[BLSoaps]

Ok but some people apply lip balms with finger tips (lip balms in pots). I'm trying not to get too scared. For the most part I would use lotion bases but there are a few recipes I want to try that contain no water. But since I know nothing about preservatives, I could probably do some hard by adding perservatives and by not adding it! I guess, I could always include the disclaimer as you do, but that seems like a lot of information to add to a label!

It unfortunately is a lot of info to add to the label, especially for my 1 oz size! LOL! But I squeeze it on there.

As for fingers in the pot, I wouldn't worry too much if I were you. It's mostly the concern for exposing water to the mixture. Most people don't stick wet fingers into a lip balm pot. I don't put a disclaimer on my lip balms. I do on the whipped shea because people may hop out of the shower, and apply it when their hands are still damp. The chance for water exposure, even accidental is a lot higher. I've been debating for quite a while whether or not to add a preservative, and the more and more I think about it, the more I lean to adding it. But the lip balms - I won't ever add them there.

As for lotion recipes that don't contain water - technically, that won't be a lotion. Lotions and creams, according to the most commonly interpreted definitions, have water emulsified with oils. Butters are anhydrous (no water). Some companies sell "Body Butters" that are very thick, but are still oil & water emulsifications. It can get confusing. But if there is not water, it's not truly a lotion. If it's fluid or semi fluid, it's a body oil, if it's solid or whipped, it's a body butter. I'm not saying you shouldn't make them, just clarifying the names is all. Just keep in mind that once water is added, or a great risk of water accidentally being added, a preservative is needed.

I hope that makes sense! LOL! It's been a long day, and I'm trying to help my son with his homework at the same time!

[Kelly]

It does make sense. For the whipped body butter recipe I wanted to try though, I would have no idea what to add as far as a preservative (there is no water in the recipes, it's just oils and butters). I'm not anywhere near selling B&B products but I guess I worry about things in advance so that when the time comes I'm more prepared.

I've never personally added any lotion or otherwise moisturizing substance without toweling off after my bath or shower but heaven knows it's better to be safe than sorry. I guess for now, since I'm not selling and won't be selling in large quantities, that I will probably not worry about a preservative in the body butter. Learning about the preservatives and using them correctly will be a whole new adventure.

[Bunny]

Kelly, here's is a very basic guide on preservatives (it is in the B&B FAQ at the top of the main page). Once you find one that looks like it may suit your needs, I would recommend going to the manufacturer's link and reading up on it (them) further.

http://www.candletech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21759

[BLSoaps]

I just mentioned this in a post to Bunny privately (we've been chatting! LOL!), and I thought I'd mention it here as well.

Sometime last year, one of the soaping yahoo groups that I was on had a class about making emulsified scrubs. They were using either Polysorbate 20 or 80 as their emulsifying agent, and it was recommended that LiquaPar or Phenonip be the preservative of choice since it works in anhydrous formulas.

Shortly after the class someone mentioned hearing a rumor about Polysorbates breaking down paraben based preservatives (which both of those are). I went directly to ISP (manufacturer for LiquaPar), and asked the source. They confirmed the "rumor." He sent me a long and detailed explanation of why, that even with all my knowledge and research of preservatives, still managed to leave my head spinning. But basically summed up, if you use Polysorbates in a formula, over time they will break down a paraben based preservative. It was recommended to use Optiphen, or to use LiquaPar WITH Optiphen for the best coverage. Even though most of the preservatives are built to be used on their own, some occasions, like the case of an emulsified scrub, combining efforts makes it stronger.

Just some food for thought!

[BLSoaps]

Shortly after the class someone mentioned hearing a rumor about Polysorbates breaking down paraben based preservatives (which both of those are). I went directly to ISP (manufacturer for LiquaPar), and asked the source. They confirmed the "rumor." He sent me a long and detailed explanation of why, that even with all my knowledge and research of preservatives, still managed to leave my head spinning.

Okay, here's that mildly mind-numbing post I mentioned before!

Remember, I forewarned that it's quite technical.

From Steve Orofino, who unfortunately recently left ISP for greener pastures. (www.ispcorp.com)

"Non-ionic surfactants and emulsifiers (the polysorbates are non-ionic) tend to deactivate parabens. What happens is the non-ionic will form micelles with the parabens and will render them less available. However, it is very formulation specific and varies by the type and amount of non-ionic used. Up to about 2% non-ionic will have a small effect on the efficacy of parabens while a higher amount will have a greater effect on parabens. Increased amounts of parabens can be used to overcome this inherent deactivating effect of non-ionics but it is best to use non-paraben preservatives if high amounts of non-ionics are used."

So it's not definite that your polysorbate will break down your paraben based preservative, but it's expected. My suggestion, if you really want to use one, make it, and let it sit for 6 months to 1 year, THEN have it tested. If it passes, and you deem it worth the risk, go for it. Personally, I think I'm going to use Optiphen.

[Kelly]

Kelly, here's is a very basic guide on preservatives (it is in the B&B FAQ at the top of the main page). Once you find one that looks like it may suit your needs, I would recommend going to the manufacturer's link and reading up on it (them) further.

http://www.candletech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21759

Thanks Bunny I skimmed through the thread when I was at work and it was just confusing as heck. But that could be because I was at work trying to read a thread and not get caught doing it. I'll look at it more when I'm not at work! But I really don't know if I'll ever understand all the info on perservatives. Well I guess the thread isn't confusing it's the whole learning about all the preservatives that I guess I find scary because I don't want to make a mistake.

Which brings me to why I originally started this thread. I was trying to find a recipe close to Burt's Bees Almond Milk Beeswax Hand Creme, and their recipe contains water and it claims 100% natural which made me think that it must not have preservatives.

So, anyway, when I found the body butter recipe I asked the creator about preservatives and she said that none were needed because it didn't contain water. Anyway, as you can see I'm just going in circles with myself over this. I'm trying not to scare myself away from B&B products. I just don't want to make a mistake and my products grow mold or something worse!

Ugh sigh. It's be a long day. So in the end I was considering just whipping the Lip Balm base I have and it would have been pretty close to the Burt's Bees, but then that didn't have preservatives! But I guess they would be using it as a hand creme not necessarily after a bath or after washing hands.

I must apologize for this rambling disorganized post. After working all day my brain doesn't function properly!

[gerrie]

I am one of those people who saw green fuzzy mold growing on a bottle of lotion I made. I had been making this lotion in small batches for about 6 months or more, getting ready to start selling it during my Christmas shows. I'd never had a problem, and my testers (family) loved it. You can't imagine how I felt when I opened a jar and saw that green mold growing. I was one of those who thought I'd never have that happen to me cause I'm very careful about making sure everything has been wiped down with a bleach/water solution, and then spraying with alcohol, following directions to the "T", making sure I had the right preservative, etc. None of the other jars developed this mold, so I couldn't pin point exactly what had gone wrong, if it had been the entire batch it would have made more sense to me. Since I couldn't pin point it, I was left hanging, with the thought it could happen again. So that was the end of my lotion making days. I've done lotions with a base for the past 6 years and I'm going to stick with that. To bad, cause it really was fun making my own lotions, I just can't take a chance on selling my lotion to someone and having mold start to grow. The only conclusion that I could come to was that perhaps that one jar had something in it, since I never cleaned my jars (had read a lot about "to clean or not to clean jars"). So make sure you test for a period of time before you start selling, and make enough small batches to test. I still just sit and shake my head and think.......how could this happen to me?????