Soy wax = healthier?

[mysty72]

I have been doing some reading about the health risks of petroleum-based waxes. It's hard to know what is truth and what is propaganda, since some of the info comes from soy proponents.

Does anyone have concrete information on whether or not soy is actually healthier for people's breathing, etc? I do wonder sometimes, as I'm pouring away and sniffing all the different FOs, if I'm damaging my lungs.

Thanks for your opinions/thoughts. :-)

[topofmurrayhill]

I've looked for test data on soot and suchlike but have not been able to find any yet, which doesn't strike me as surprising.

It would be insane for the actual producers of soy wax to publish test data because no facts could possibly serve them better than the hype that is already making the rounds.

Producers for whom the candle industry is significant such as IGI know perfectly well that they're not about to kill off the soy market, so they're content to just sell into the trend with a few extra products. A big refiner like Mobile could care less about who uses what for candles. To say that soy wax to them is like a flea on an elephant's back is a huge overstatement.

So I take it there may be a lack of properly equipped and credible parties that actually have an interest in publishing test results. We're left with people repeating and exaggerating some pro-soy claims made in a patent application years ago, plus exaggerating and repeating out of context some FDA stuff. Somehow it has all been said often enough to become accepted truth to many people.

I'm not putting soy or veggie waxes down; it's nice stuff. I'm just waiting for the Real World to intrude on the hypefest so we can understand things a little better. If there's good data that I've missed please point me in the right direction.

[RobinInOR]

I've collected a few links - a lot are broken on the soy page, but maybe you can find some links that will answer some of your questions.

http://watersgulch.com/CandleScience01.shtml

You're good to question it, there's lots propaganda out there. It's hard to find stuff - all you can find is copy after copy of the same information.

[topofmurrayhill]

Hi Robin, thanks for the info.

Isn't it interesting that it's so hard even to find a simple comparative test of soot emissions from paraffin and soy candles?

In certain cases I would bet on soy wax burning cleaner without hesitation. For instance, a soft one-pour soy container wax versus one of the soft pre-formulated paraffin-based blends. With all that petrolatum involved I'd bet on the soy. In other scenarios it could be different. What I like to consider common sense also tells me that the "soot-free" claim for soy would prove to be nonsense unless we believe in miracles.

Speculation aside, it seems such a basic test that would significantly contribute to the dialogue about this issue. It could even be a CT message board project. If someone with a handy pair of tin snips could construct a few chimneys out of dipping tanks, I could envision a methodology for comparative tests of "equivalant" soy and paraffin candles. In my ideal world Alan would make the chimneys, lol.

[RobinInOR]

There's instructions for a basic soot chimney test at http://cleanwax.com/soottest.htm

I used it when I was using cleanwax, and I use it occasionally with my other waxes. Maybe something like this? It's hard to do definitive tests, since it's hard to control all the different parameters.

[topofmurrayhill]

True Robin, we probably have neither the expertise to design an experiment that would withstand a scientific critique nor the ability to execute one from far-flung locations.

On the other hand, I think we could design a test that would be meaningful and provocative. Somebody should do something more substantial than spread propaganda and maybe it would get something going.

I could envision enlisting some of the more experienced chandlers in the group as volunteers to create test candles that are clean burning to their satisfaction. We would have to define "equivalent" candles to test apples to apples, such as a typical paraffin pillar and a typical soy pillar for instance. We'd need someone to build the equipment, carry out the tests and collect the data, and we'd need a way to quantify soot (optically maybe with the help of careful photography and maybe by weight). We could also quantify burn times while we're at it.

I guess the amount of work and complication would be prohibitive but it's not impossible and certainly an intriguing idea.

[mysty72]

This is an interesting idea. I don't know much about the test chimneys but I'll read up on them. I'll poke around at Lowe's and see if I can find some comparable materials.

I too noticed that a lot of the anti-paraffin arguments were repeated throughout different websites. Part of me can't help but think that the controversy has more to do with market share than with "protecting" people from potentially dangerous emissions. I'll keep investigating and let you know if I find anything worth discussing.

Thanks!

[topofmurrayhill]

We should ask Pourette if they would make a couple of nice tin plate chimneys for us in exchange for promotional consideration. kind of like big custom candle molds. It would be perfect.

[scents for me]

There is tons of info on this subject.

Here's a good link

http://www.geocities.com/get_scent/waxsection.htm

[Mona]

http://www.igiwax.com/wax_faq.shtml

[Garf]

Does anyone have any information about the accidental ingestion (swallowing) of parafin or soy wax? I work from the same surface that I place pills on that I need to take daily. What would happen if I swallowed some wax?

[topofmurrayhill]

Does anyone have any information about the accidental ingestion (swallowing) of parafin or soy wax? I work from the same surface that I place pills on that I need to take daily. What would happen if I swallowed some wax?

I would suggest making reasonable efforts to keep from contaminating stuff you ingest with candle ingredients. However, from what you said I don't think you need to have any undue anxiety. The amount that would get on your medication isn't something to run to the doctor about.

As far as waxes go, even non-food grade varieties aren't particularly poisonous. You can eat the highly refined ones and you probably do because they coat fruits and vegetables with them. Even many of the less refined ones are certified to be used for food packaging and such. The waxes we use for candles and the ones used in the food industry are similar and often one and the same. I can show you an IGI data sheet for one wax that says it's useful for container candles and turnips. The soy waxes are said to be digestible.

Not that I suggest eating the waxes because you don't know where they've been.

What I would be particularly careful with is with the FOs, dyes and additives. For the most part they may not be very toxic, but I clean them up carefully and avoid mixing up food equipment with candle equipment.

[topofmurrayhill]

I'm still on the case.

Nature's Gifts sent me a copy of research that was done at Iowa State. Sadly, I didn't get far into it before realizing that the data was completely flawed. The researchers knew a lot about science and not much about candles, so they used the same type of wicking for each candle, not taking into account the different viscosities of the waxes they were testing. Hence, the paraffin tests were wildly overwicked and produced a lot of soot. They omitted the crucial step of optimizing the wick to the wax, as a candlemaker would.

Actually, I also ran across some IGI research that included burn tests of paraffin and vegetable waxes, although they didn't mention what oils the vegetable waxes were derived from. Those tests underscore the flaws of the Iowa State studies I think, since the IGI people know from candles and tried to optimize wicking. Their test data show a huge difference from wick to wick, and FO to FO, but not much difference between the waxes themselves. All the cleanest burning candles were pretty comparable in terms of soot emission and burn rates, regardless of what they were made of.

Unless someone can show me some real data, I'm starting to feel that "bogus" is a better word than "hype" to describe the purported low soot and long burn claims for vegetable waxes.

[Chad]

Just want to add a little something. Allot of people claim that soy wax is completely petroleum free and a complete renewable resource. What they don't take into account is the farm equipment(diesel) needed to harvest the soy beans and the energy (coal) used to refine it, so actually there is a large amount of fossil fuel needed to make soy wax. Soybean oil can actually be made into a fuel to run our cars but due to what I mentioned above it takes more fossil fuel to produce than they actually would get from the soy. Same thing with corn. Hey I just had a thought, why don't they make corn wax? They make ethanol alcohol from it.

[soygirl]

Yes, Chad, that's true. But, I still feel that the end result is reduction in the use of a non-renewable resource. That's why I use soy wax. Afterall, additional energy sources are also required to pump and refine oil. So, if the fossil fuels consumed in processing of paraffin versus soy wax cancel each other out - in the end you are still using a renewable resource as candle fuel. It's not the tiny differences - it's the huge difference that results from the combination of all the tiny differences. That's what will change the world:) I know, I'm a hopeless optimist:wink2:

[RobinInOR]

Interesting you got the research from Iowa State - I've seen abstracts of one study, but not the whole thing. I've seen the paraffin study that was done for CA emission laws, and that was totally bogus as well. There was another study done for CA Prop 65 that showed paraffin as not having to be listed.

There's environmental concerns on both sides, and you have to decide which is going to be your hot button. Mine, since I don't live in soy country, is that soy is the #2 crop in terms of pesticide use. And the farmers that are being supported aren't necessarily the small, trying-to-make-it farmers that are raising soy, but the big agribusiness conglomerates. I have a *huge* problem with the conglomerates, it's a gut hatred that I developed at UC Davis, a very nice ag school But that's just *my* personal hot button.

So I use a paraffin/soy blend - best and worst of both worlds

[topofmurrayhill]

I have been wondering in the back of my mind so I will finally voice it -- what is the difference whether it's a renewable resource or not? If we run out of wax, fine. Whether we use soy or paraffin a lot of pollution is generated to produce it, and it's immaterial to me whether the profits go to energy companies or agribusiness. It's fine to be optimistic and do one's little part to make a difference, as long as there is ANY difference and there may be none. Maybe supporting the use of deadly pesticides as Robin pointed out is even scarier. I suspect, if you'll forgive me, that eco-trendiness may be a more significant influence here than the facts of the matter.

[topofmurrayhill]

Interesting you got the research from Iowa State - I've seen abstracts of one study, but not the whole thing.

The folks at Nature's Gifts seem terribly friendly and helpful. I wrote back after looking at the study and realizing that it was meaningless. I pointed out the wicking issue and suggested that, as people much more intimate with candlemaking, they surely must have noticed the problem with the research. The response I got was:

Sure did but as you say everyone has their way of doing things. This is the best info other than simple qualitative observation that we have.

[soygirl]

Topofmurrayhill,

I have to laugh at myself and my pathetic attempts to change the world too, because all my efforts may amount to nothing. Perhaps recycling is a big waste of community funding that costs more than it saves. Maybe it won't make a difference to the water supply if I use eco-friendly laundry detergent. There is no way that I will ever be able to justify every decision that I make. But, I keep trying anyway, because I feel that doing something with the best of intentions is better than doing nothing. I try to research and make informed decisions. Eco-trendiness may be the selling point of my candles, but it isn't my influence for making the decisions that I make.

I'm not particularily worried about the world wax supply. It's the oil supply I am concerned with, and not only due to shortage, but moreso because nobody has gone to war over soybean rights that I know of. Paraffin is a by-product of oil refining, so I guess the argument can be made that it is a good use of something that would otherwise be thrown away. But, refining less oil creates less paraffin, so as we find fossil fuel substitutes, we will also need paraffin substitutes.

I'm sorry if this answer was too political. I realize we are supposed to avoid political issues on this board.

[cryptic]

http://ask.yahoo.com/20030207.html

[Mona]

IMHO, that Yahoo link in a previous post appears to be from an known source and lacks credibility.

If advertising that burning soy candles is somehow better for the environment, one will have to be prepared to prove their claims to the FTC. Claims that soy is healthier or more friendly to the environment must also be substantiated. I've seen more than enough claims, but never any proof.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/grnrule/guides980427.htm

http://www.scorecard.org/chemical-profiles/national-risk-characterization.tcl?edf_substance_id=8002%2d74%2d2

[Tess]

You see one reason I do not take any of these "articles" into consideration is this: It is strictly a matter of the authors opinion. If the author believes soy wax to be "safe" well you can bet your bottom dollar that he is going to publish an article that is at least subliminally biased.

IF Paraffin was so dangerous than we would not be allowed to sell it. Or we would have limitation on who we sell it to like alcohol.

So that is why I don't exactly take into consideration, the .gov sites either. Heck if the government thought it was dangerous, you can BET they would put limitation and taxes on it!

I think the soy wax thing is like organics. It is a matter of belief and lifestyle. It's a fad IMO. Some peeps will believe ANYTHING written down or published. And everyone loves a controversy.

I agree with Chad, not only do you have to take into account the fuel used to harvest and extract the components of the soybeans, but there is also shipping it.

On another note, I have gotten a couple of candles from some very impressive and accomplished soy makers, and both of theirs smoked and sooted. I did not marathon, or do anything out of the ordinary. Yet they smoked more than my paraffin candles. Just a thought.

[Meridith]

Well I can tell you as someone that has chronic bronchitis, I had to stop burning paraffin because of the effect it was having on me and my breathing problems. I now burn just soy and can tell a HUGE difference in my breathing. I also have customers that report to me the same thing. In addition, I can attest to, and have customers that can attest to the fact that soy can be better for those who suffer from migraines - ie I have customers that absolutely can not burn paraffin without it triggering a migraine but can burn soy with no problems (same here). Now, I know that there are those out there that probably react the same way to soy but I am only attesting to what I know for myself and what my customers report back to me. And lastly, my candles do not burn dirty and yet, the paraffin candles I have burned have been horrendous for the amount of black nasty soot I got. And when an HVAC guy comes to clean my heating system and asks me if I burn alot of candles which he figured out because of the soot in my heating system, it makes me wonder. 2 1/2 years later after starting to make my own soy candles, he doesn't find soot in my heating system nor is my heating system as dirty as it used to get. And I now burn more candles than I ever did before so its not that I don't burn as many candles. I personally don't care how soy is made - I like the cleaner burn as well as the look of a soy candle burning. I also hear back from my customers that have burned paraffin and are now switching to soy that they feel scents burn "fresher" or smell better in soy, I can't argue with that (I believe that to be true too). And when my customers would rather buy and burn a soy candle, I am one happy camper. I actually came to all of my conclusions and beliefs BEFORE I started to make soy candles. It was my positive experiences with soy that caused me to start making my own. However, I do feel also that there is room for both paraffin and soy and alot boils down to preference and what YOU know to be true for YOU - regardless of what you read or hear. I don't care to burn paraffin anymore, but I am more than happy to set my booth up next to any paraffin chandler and let the customers decide what they prefer and let my products sell themselves. If I am doing my job and making a clean safe burning, long lasting, great smelling candle, they will come back because of those factors. IMO opinion these are the important factors to customers. I don't believe that most would even care how soy is made. Once they've made a choice to change to soy, I believe that choice is usually based on personal experience. I can appreciate the hard work that any serious chandler puts into their product whether its soy or paraffin. No matter what you make, you should put time in to learn about your product, perfect it, and test it. You should believe in your product and be proud of it.

[cryptic]

Meridith, I thought I was the only one who had problems with paraffin (or closely related) candles! I don't suffer from any doctor-diagnosed illnesses (knock on wood), but have always had trouble with regular candles.

For me, I prefer soy wax candles simply because of the following: I hated being around candles (regardless of where they were purchased from - Walmart, specialty shops, gift shops, big & small stores, etc.) and very rarely did I purchase them - only to fill the room with a nice scent. But they made me sneeze, cough, headaches, or cause me to have a "gagging" feeling, while they are burning and immediately when they are extinguished (the worst reaction) ...until I came across a candle one day that did not cause me to experience those symptoms. I asked what type of candle it was and was informed that it was 100% soy wax, etc. Since then, I've purchased some soy candles and now I say: Wow, now I can actually enjoy candles without having those annoying effects. This is what led me to investigate the contents of candles further and coming across "candle making."

Whatever is used in those non-soy wax candles when they "burn" is what causes my reactions. I only get the symptoms above when the candle is burning. However, every now and then I did experience a small headache from smelling certain candles.

I'm not saying soy is "pure" or that it's better than non-soy candles...I'm just saying that I choose soy because it doesn't cause me to have reactions to them. Regardless, I am glad that soy wax candles exist and don't really care to use the other candles.

I have yet to try a palm wax candle or beeswax candle to see what reactions I experience from those.

P.S. This is just my experience and point of view.

[Tess]

Do you think it could possibly be an allergy to candles? NOT necessarily the wax itself? Or maybe you are allergic to paraffin. I say this because DH and his family have all kinds of health problems. DH has severe allergies, and asthma, his mom and dad have bad allergies. His brother has severe bronchitis, plus sever allergies, and my grandpa has emphysema, and ALL of them burn my stuff on a continual basis. None of them have any complaints of their conditions getting better or worse.