Issues wicking my wax blends - HELP!

[MsPeachesDelight]

Hello!

I've been testing my candles for a year now, and its been failure after failure. Ive tried CD, LX, Zinc, UC, Woodwicks. HTP wicks, Aroma-lite, ECO, HPSP and no throw!  I know HT is subjective, but in our focus groups people have mentioned that there's no HT.

I decided to switch up vessels, since even the largest wick in aroma-lite, won't even give me a full melt pool.  The vessel I used to test were ceramic vessels, now  I'm switching to Glam Tins from makesy.

 

I would love you assistance since I'm at a complete loss and ready to call it quits! 

Waxes I've tried: coco 83, coco creme (makesy), scorpion wax, soy10,sozo luxe soy, hemp wax(makesy), bw917, midwest soy. and I've blended some with mp117, 4630, sp487 and I couldn't get HT with any.  I have beeswax and c55 as well, just haven't used it yet. 

 

Out of the waxes I have, are there any you suggest I try as a blend? I'm a huge blender! And are there any wicks I should try that I haven't listed?

 

Thank you for your time. I truly appreciate it

 

- a frustrated, but hopeful chandler

Edited July 6, 2022 by MsPeachesDelight

[TallTayl]

Wow! You’ve been busy!

of your collection, I like coco83 with sp487 best.  Disclaimer: my coco83 is going to be different from yours. How much different is anyone’s guess.  With my particular lot a proportion of 70:30 coco83:sp487 works well for many fragrances. CDN wicks usually. I don’t wick for early full melt pool with these types of blends as it will be problematic further into the candle.  
 

one lot of coco83 I received worked a,azingly well at 50:50 with midwest soy.  It was one of the best candles I had ever burned in a status jar with my pink sugar fragrance. The coco83 was weird out of the box, smells strongly of some weird chemical and never got clear in the melter. To make matters worse it cooled with the worst cavities Id ever seen with any coco wax. Blended with midwest that I had on hand solved the weaknesses of BOTH waxes in one swoop.  The candle gods and goddesses were smiling upon me with that one. 
 

when choosing jars, the material and thickness make a difference.  Glass will wick different than tins. Tins bug me after the second burn as the metal conducts the heat so much more efficiently that it is easy to overwick based on first burns.  
 

the main component of a scented candle will be your fragrance.  Not all work well with every wax.  What retailers have you tried?

[MsPeachesDelight]

20 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Wow! You’ve been busy!

of your collection, I like coco83 with sp487 best.  Disclaimer: my coco83 is going to be different from yours. How much different is anyone’s guess.  With my particular lot a proportion of 70:30 coco83:sp487 works well for many fragrances. CDN wicks usually. I don’t wick for early full melt pool with these types of blends as it will be problematic further into the candle.  
 

 

Thank you for replying! So, a perfumer who makes scents for candles as well made our custom blend. I did the wax in wax melter test, heat test on the FO and everything was perfection. Yesterday I made a 50 midwest soy/45%coco85 5%beeswax blend with 10% FO- CT is great!.  and 50/50 soy10/coco83 - the CT is subtle.  Im going to try the sp487 with coco83. 

Are there any other waxes you suggest I get a sample of? I know you're a mixer as well.  Also, how the hell does Nest, Boy Smells, Le Labo and all those companies get such insane HT?  What's the secret sauce? Is it because they go over 12% fragrance load?  

[TallTayl]

2 hours ago, MsPeachesDelight said:

Thank you for replying! So, a perfumer who makes scents for candles as well made our custom blend. I did the wax in wax melter test, heat test on the FO and everything was perfection. Yesterday I made a 50 midwest soy/45%coco85 5%beeswax blend with 10% FO- CT is great!.  and 50/50 soy10/coco83 - the CT is subtle.  Im going to try the sp487 with coco83. 

Are there any other waxes you suggest I get a sample of? I know you're a mixer as well.  Also, how the hell does Nest, Boy Smells, Le Labo and all those companies get such insane HT?  What's the secret sauce? Is it because they go over 12% fragrance load?  

HT is all about the right wick for the job.  each FO may take a different wick size and series. White barn candle uses dozens of different wicks in their candle line. 
 

Every wax has a sweet spot with fragrances that will work with the specific chemistry of that wax. Those companies likely have their dialed in fragrances made custom, along with a wax blend they found worked well in their containers.
 

No need for high % load when the FO is purpose made for them. Not all perfumer special blends are perfect for all waxes. When I do custom work I often have to test the FO in many waxes to figure out what might work best, just like what you’re doing.  Usually I find something that works, but sometimes it just plain won’t throw well. Explaining the issue to the perfumer so they can try other aromachemicals to hit the desired notes can help. 
 

soy tends to dull fragrances. midwest can be a powerhouse thrower when wicked well, and given plenty of cure time.   Like I noted above a 50:50 with the weird coco83 made some perfect candles.

 

Beeswax in coco and soy blends can cause some burn and hT issues.  Bees at up to 2% tamed many of the annoying midwest soy seepage issues, but requires fiddly cooling to pour well.
 

 I used to add 3-5% white beeswax to coco83 and thought it was the bomdiggety aside from the black film by the end of the burn. Palm is so much better. I have tested 5301-A, 5601-A and 5801-A with coco83.  5801-A made the candle look like it had a case of the measles as it cooled, and didn’t hold fo as reliably as others.  5301-A was nice with most fragrances. 5601-A made wicking some fragrances less of a nightmare. Overall if given the choice sp487 would be preferable to me. There was supposedly a bad lot of it around recently, but I don’t know the current status.  If price and availability of sp487 are sketchy, 5301-A/(Palm1 from candlewic) is a nice reliable wax to blend with coco83. 
 

I’ve also had decent luck with C1 blended up to 30% with coco83. 

 

Cocos can, and often do, let those subtle notes shine.  

palm wax is another lovely one to showcase FO, but the dimensions of container are rather limiting ieven how palm burns down then out. Palm like glass glow are really beautiful in clear jars.

 

 

[MsPeachesDelight]

 

37 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

5801-A made the candle look like it had a case of the measles as it cooled

@TallTayl lol! With the palm wax, would you still suggest doing a 70/30 blend? I know some palms have a low fragrace load (3%), would I still be able to do 8-10% if blended with coco83?  

 

Thank you again!!!! you have calmed my nerves with your thoughts and tips

[TallTayl]

10 hours ago, MsPeachesDelight said:

 

@TallTayl lol! With the palm wax, would you still suggest doing a 70/30 blend? I know some palms have a low fragrace load (3%), would I still be able to do 8-10% if blended with coco83?  

 

Thank you again!!!! you have calmed my nerves with your thoughts and tips

Here’s how the 5801 blend looked as it cooled, lol. It seeped and pooled at 6% FO, so I no longer use 5801 in coco83. Fun experiment though! 5801 is a votive/pillar  blend designed to shrink to remove easily from molds, so not surprising it squeezed out droplets. 

 

I don’t use that much FO in any of my candles, especially not needed in coco83 IMO. you will need to experiment with how your particular FO holds.  Some are more prone to seepage and pooling that people others just by nature of their formulation. Often less % fo is more HT - especially when you figure out a good wick for your candle combo.
 

In this blend (my lot of coco83 plus 30% palm 1) typical FO from resellers is plenty strong at <8% with CDN wicks in 3” wide 3+” tall glass status jars, and in 2.5 straight sided jars. Do not wick for full melt pool on the first few burns. Leave a bit of extra room at the top (don’t pour all the any up) if you need early HT. The chimney effect of the extra headspace will build the further down the candle burns to give more HT more quickly.
 

if your FO is custom made, direct from a lab, you should be able to order it in whatever concentration is needed for your wax.  All fragrances are diluted into a diluent for use in candles, soap, etc. You can order in different concentrations to suit your wax (which is why so many custom makers only need tiny % in their products to hit a strong HT).

[MsPeachesDelight]

3 hours ago, TallTayl said:

Here’s how the 5801 blend looked as it cooled, lol. It seeped and pooled at 6% FO, so I no longer use 5801 in coco83. Fun experiment though! 5801 is a votive/pillar  blend designed to shrink to remove easily from molds, so not surprising it squeezed out droplets. 

 

Hey! The edges look nice though, lol! I see what you mean, and your description is spot on, lol!

 

Happy Friday! When you say (pardon my candle ignorance, lol! 😅 : Do not wick for full melt pool on the first few burns. Leave a bit of extra room at the top (don’t pour all the any up) if you need early HT. The chimney effect of the extra headspace will build the further down the candle burns to give more HT more quickly.  What exactly do you mean?  Can you pls show me an example? I'm trying to visualize it, while my brain is reacting like Winona Ryder at the Sag awards  😂

[TallTayl]

Full melt pool, IMO/IME is a limit, not a goal.  When people wick hot to get the edge to edge melt and 1/4-1/2” deep on the first burn the candles will undoubtedly be much to hot by the middle and potentially dangerously hot by the bottom 1/3 to cause secondary ignition (a candle fire). 
 

most of us who have been making candles for a while know that with most waxes, the melt pools of common waxes like to burn down then out. This gives a “U” shaped melt pool if you could cut it in half and look inside. A nice shallow “U” means a safe burning candle since the container temperature never increases above the published safety standards. This balance between wax that is melted as fuel for the flame and the flame itself will burn cleanly - mo carbon heading on the wick, no soot on the jar. Fresh scented wax flows into the small pool to be burned efficiently, versus a hot deep melt pool that discolors and loses its scent after a burn.

 

HT is thrown into the air with air current. A completely full container has a hard time creating a heat current, and will not throw scent as easily.  Leaving 1/2” of empty container gives some wall for the air to hit against as it begins to spin in a current.  1” of unfilled head space (exposed  wall) in the jar creates quite a bit more convection as the air swirls around in the chimney.  More heat builds which provides faster, more intense HT.

I don’t have a photo handy, but grab a few of your candles. Pour one full to the top, one with an inch of space left at the top and one half way full.  light them all.  make a note of the flame height and if it spitters or wiggles in the jar.  Which one smells stronger and quicker? I like to watch my candles at night. Flame dancing is very noticeable then! As is a little bit of rippled air above the candle as the heat escapes the flame. 
 

 

[MsPeachesDelight]

OHHHHH! GOTCHA! That makes sense! I will do those tests tomorrow night and I'm going to order Palm 1 and SP 486 - I want to compare it to my 487.  Have you tried SP486?  So basically, full melt pool should never really be the goal, because its dangerous and fights the goal of a good HT. Its funny because in the candles groups I'm in, a lot of people complain about not getting a full melt pool, and go on to double wick, or try larger wicks, that don't really belong.

 

So, ideally once wick, and all that is figured out, if I have a 9 or 8 oz vessel etc, fill 8oz into a 9oz vessel  and 7oz into an 8oz vessel and so on.. correct?

 

BTW: the midwest soy/coco83/beeswax CT is fantastic so far!  Now that I'm going to play around with Palm, is the cure time the same? 2 weeks? or does it shorten the cure time? 

 

YOU ARE A CANDLE GODDESS!!! THANK YOU a million times over

Edited July 8, 2022 by MsPeachesDelight

[TallTayl]

I have sp486 and don’t really love it.  It has a distinct yellow hue that nobody can specifically identify.  I even asked my Strahl & Pittsch sales guy and they would not reveal the ingredients 🤷🏻‍♀️ I don’t need to know proportions, just tell me if it’s candelila, beeswax, whatever… 

 

it wicked different than sp487 and in the limited testing I completed it didn’t seem to throw as well as 487 when blended into my particular coco83. 

 

cure time in my coco83 palm blends is pretty short IMO. Three days seems to burn the same as 3 weeks. Yay coco83! 
 

Quote

Its funny because in the candles groups I'm in, a lot of people complain about not getting a full melt pool, and go on to double wick, or try larger wicks, that don't really belong.

Isn’t that FRUSTRATING? While researching safety rules for commercial candles, I learned A LOT about ASTM and UL publications.  Did you know for places like home goods and others safety standards are pretty specific. metal containers  must  not exceed 125*F, and glass/ceramic must not exceed 140*F (of 145*F depending on the UL standard applied at the time of publication).  That’s a huge difference from other quoted standards made up by who knows where. Wicking for early fast HT and FMP will very likely be a fail pretty quickly when tested.  
 

why do I care about their standards  if I’m not selling to home goods, or any other retailer? Simple.  ASTM and UL standards will be used as the yard stick in the event of a candle fire. Why not develop well from the start? 

[MsPeachesDelight]

52 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

Isn’t that FRUSTRATING? While researching safety rules for commercial candles, I learned A LOT about ASTM and UL publications.  Did you know for places like home goods and others safety standards are pretty specific. metal containers  must  not exceed 125*F, and glass/ceramic must not exceed 140*F (of 145*F depending on the UL standard applied at the time of publication).  That’s a huge difference from other quoted standards made up by who knows where. Wicking for early fast HT and FMP will very likely be a fail pretty quickly when tested.  
 

VERY!!! and I agree. Take your time, do it right.  I see a lot of crazy candles that shouldn't be for sale.  The whole candle catching fire situation reminds me of the Goop candle!  I've bought a few candles from a couple of small boutiques that were questionable as well. I remember one candle was a literal inferno in a whiskey glass and wondered if they even preformed any kind of safety tests 🤯

 

I digress, I'm really excited to test my candles! 

 

 I have 1lb of Palm1 in my cart, also glass glow palm. Just to confirm, when you mean glass glow, you're referring to IGI R2322, right?  and passing on the 486.

 

[TallTayl]

1 hour ago, MsPeachesDelight said:

 

 I have 1lb of Palm1 in my cart, also glass glow palm. Just to confirm, when you mean glass glow, you're referring to IGI R2322, right?  and passing on the 486.

 

Yes to the r2322a = glass glow. That’s a super pretty wax in clear glass jars.  not horrible to wick either. Just make sure the jar is taller than wide. The sweet spot for diameter on gg jars is about 2.5”.
 

 

you might like 486 more than I did.  My opinion doesn’t often match everyone else… 😬. 487 as a blender is about my favorite for coconut right now.  Can’t wait to try it as an ingredient in my own coco blend! 

[MsPeachesDelight]

53 minutes ago, TallTayl said:

487 as a blender is about my favorite for coconut right now.  Can’t wait to try it as an ingredient in my own coco blend! 

If you ever sell that blend, SIGN ME UP!! LOL I'll buy it alll up.😂

[MsPeachesDelight]

Hey @TallTayl - lots of debate on what temp to add FO's and what temp to melt coconut blends (ie coco83) and soy / para soy blends.

Is it best to follow what the manufacture suggests, or do you always melt and add FO's at high temps?

 

[TallTayl]

28 minutes ago, MsPeachesDelight said:

Hey @TallTayl - lots of debate on what temp to add FO's and what temp to melt coconut blends (ie coco83) and soy / para soy blends.

Is it best to follow what the manufacture suggests, or do you always melt and add FO's at high temps?

 

Coco83 and Coco83 blends I always get up to 200, higher if using palm (to the palm temp). I add fo right away and pour hot. 

[MsPeachesDelight]

1 hour ago, TallTayl said:

1 hour ago, MsPeachesDelight said:

 

Coco83 and Coco83 blends I always get up to 200, higher if using palm (to the palm temp). I add fo right away and pour hot. 

 

Gotcha! Would you go up to 215-225F or is that waaay to hot (Without Palm)?  I’m going to make some testers tomorrow! 🙌🏼

 

I was going to try 200-210F with Midwest soy  &paraffin. But now I’m thinking it might be too hot. 

[TallTayl]

9 hours ago, MsPeachesDelight said:

 

Gotcha! Would you go up to 215-225F or is that waaay to hot (Without Palm)?  I’m going to make some testers tomorrow! 🙌🏼

 

I was going to try 200-210F with Midwest soy  &paraffin. But now I’m thinking it might be too hot. 

For palm, 200-210 is fine.  Palm wax has specific melting requirements to fully melt  the palm wax itself.  Palm doesn’t have a “slushy” stage like soy and most container paraffin.  Palm is either solid or liquid. In order to get it to blend evenly in other waxes it takes some extra care. 
 

when blending coco83 with soy, I take it to the temp of the coco83. I tend to heat blends to the temp of the highest element in the blend to ensure those components are sufficiently melted to work as designed. Pour temps may differ depending on what is in the final blend, and what % of soy, palm, etc you add.  

[MsPeachesDelight]

Noted! Thank you.  I think the reason why I’m not getting HT is because I’m adding the FO at 215-220F 🤔 I’ve following what most peeps were doing in one of the candle groups I’m part of. 

[TallTayl]

1 hour ago, MsPeachesDelight said:

Noted! Thank you.  I think the reason why I’m not getting HT is because I’m adding the FO at 215-220F 🤔 I’ve following what most peeps were doing in one of the candle groups I’m part of. 

I use all sorts of waxes, including palm, which must be POURED over 200*F. The FO survives AOK, and at 3% fo load can fill rooms with scent if wicked well. 
 

ht problems are related to a combo platter of variables:

wrong wick for wax/fo/container

fo not suitable for the wax blend being used

container size/shape/material 

 

scoop out some of your candle and use the scooped wax as a wax melt. If you can smell it, 9 times out of 10  it’s your wick. 
 

if you can’t smell it as a wax melt, I’d say your choice of fragrance is the culprit.  Not all are formulated to work well in candles. 

 

during the past decade I’ve seen the worst issues with fragrance oil reformulations that require insane amounts to throw.  It is RIDICULOUS to need 12%+ fragrance in a candle. 
 

likewise, a weird new trend is to add FO at a very low temp.  Having witnessed some of the pooling of FO toward the bottom, I’d not choose to follow that advice without some serious long term testing.

 

if you’re using coco83 and palm wax like we’ve written back and forth about above there’s no reason to not have a nice burning, strong HT candle with a CDN wick.  
 

beeswax is a known Ht killer.  It works like vybar and holds more fo, sure, but it holds the hT like glue, just like vybar. Some might be ok, more is not usually better. 

[Laura C]

On 7/15/2022 at 9:03 AM, TallTayl said:

when blending coco83 with soy, I take it to the temp of the coco83. I tend to heat blends to the temp of the highest element in the blend to ensure those components are sufficiently melted to work as designed. Pour temps may differ depending on what is in the final blend, and what % of soy, palm, etc you add.  

 

I do the same thing, I've wondered if other people do too, now I know. 😊

[CandleCocoon]

Soooo, I am late to the party here but I do have a video on how to test burn an over 2" deep candle and what to look for.  It is 3 hours long.  I can post it if you like.

 

[Paramold]

If you are having fragrance oil created for you, make sure that it is a fragrance developed for candles and that it is also developed for the type of wax you are using.  I've had customers send in fragrance for us to make candles for them and it is a fragrance that was developed for a air diffusers.  The fragrances doesnt blend correctly and has no throw.

 

shoot me an email if you have any other questions, or if you wanted to try another blend. 

 

rick@paramold.com