Anna_Sapphic Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 (edited) Hello all! I'm new here but really hoping someone can help me out! I recently switched from using Cargill's C3 wax to using American Soy Organic's 100% Midwest Container wax. I'm use to getting almost perfect pours in a two step topping process with the C3. Extremely smooth silky tops every time. I tested this wax when I first bought it, and although it was much glossier and softer seeming, my test batch came out looking otherwise normal. So I went ahead and made a full batch, 45lbs of wax and almost every single candle came out looking like the below pictures. I've had bad pours before, and granted, this is before I do the top pour, but I've never had 1st pours look as bad as this. It looks like my candles have risen like cake and then curdled! I'm using a blend of about 5% stearic acid (palm derived) and about 10% fragrance oil. Does anyone know what's going on here? I'm at a loss because nothing changed from my test pour to this full batch. Honestly don't even know what to google to fix this because I've never seen it before haha. Edited October 6, 2020 by Anna_Sapphic Added more details Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 That happens with some fragrances I have. I ended up cutting back to 6% on those with no ill effects to cut or Ht. At most I use 8% in Mw blends. Could be too much FO without some sort of stabilizing additive like their soy additive. It also seems like it could be a temp issue with MW - either heated too high, uneven blending, poured too warm, or uneven cooling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna_Sapphic Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share Posted October 6, 2020 I'm wondering now if the cakey-ness is the result of shrinkage. As I look at them all, they all look far less filled than when I initially poured them. There's almost an inch of space between the wax and the rim of the glass now and I always fill to about 3/8th of an inch. I've never encountered this though so I don't know what shrunken wax looks like or honestly what causes it. If my 2nd pour tonight doesn't clean up the tops, wondering if this could be fixed at all with a heat gun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 There's more going on than just the tops in those pictures. The side views through the glass are concerning. the wax and fragrance are not homogeneous. I suspect pooling. Yes, soy wax shrinks as it cools, but a well blended candle won't look like cottage cheese through the glass. I bet if you pressed your fingers through the cakey top you would poke a hole as far down as your finger will reach. I have had that happen with MW, and when that appearance happens it can pool and puddle fragrance through the surface of the candle with changes to temp and humidity. I use that wax, but never alone any more because of the instability and finickiness of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 This nasty mess started off like those in your pics. After 2 months i can still move it around like putty. Midwest wax should not be like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna_Sapphic Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share Posted October 6, 2020 Ugh! It does look just like that. This is really disheartening. I've made hundreds of candles with C3 and just ended up wasting an entire case of Midwest. Still cant figure out what I did right the first time and so wrong the second. I'm guessing I just didn't mix the FO in at the right temp and probably slightly overheated my tests without realizing. Sigh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 14 minutes ago, Anna_Sapphic said: Ugh! It does look just like that. This is really disheartening. I've made hundreds of candles with C3 and just ended up wasting an entire case of Midwest. Still cant figure out what I did right the first time and so wrong the second. I'm guessing I just didn't mix the FO in at the right temp and probably slightly overheated my tests without realizing. Sigh Scaling up is always hard! Midwest is a lovely wax but it can be a little finicky. I definitely prefer it to C3 for many reasons. If you have not already I would either try adding some of their soy modifier or beeswax it really seems to improve stability and performance of it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdcharm Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 Could the stearic acid cause any issues with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 6, 2020 Share Posted October 6, 2020 38 minutes ago, birdcharm said: Could the stearic acid cause any issues with it? Good catch. I did not read thoroughly at the end. It very well could be 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna_Sapphic Posted October 6, 2020 Author Share Posted October 6, 2020 36 minutes ago, birdcharm said: Could the stearic acid cause any issues with it? I always used palm based stearic acid to increase hardness with the C3 with no problems. This seemed to have the opposite effect if that's the true issue. To be honest, I was just not able to find out what Midwest's soy modifyer was made of, so I was hesitant to use it and naively assumed that it was likely just a proprietary blend of stearic and UV inhibitors. Maybe you all have the answer to that one because I guess I was wrong haha 🤷 On the plus side, my second pour mostly smoothed out my tops and I seem to have been able to correct what didn't get fixed with the heat gun. They're far from perfect but they're not unusable. Crossing my fingers that they'll cure now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Do still check for pooling of FO those. American Soy named the phenomenon “fragrance drift” at one point. It basically meant the fragrance sank to a pool toward to lower end of the candle. With that many wooden wicks it could turn interesting in a hurry if one hits a pool of plain old FO, especially toward the bottom where things heat up in a hurry. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 regardless of how the top looks I would give everyone of those versions (# of wicks and different scents) a test burn from top to bottom before giving or selling Better safe than sorry. Ugly blue one I pictured above was soaking wet at the bottom the soy modifier is a soy monogylceride similar to cargill’s I believe. ASO sells it in a flake form. It is not Stearic. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna_Sapphic Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 51 minutes ago, TallTayl said: regardless of how the top looks I would give everyone of those versions (# of wicks and different scents) a test burn from top to bottom before giving or selling Better safe than sorry. Ugly blue one I pictured above was soaking wet at the bottom the soy modifier is a soy monogylceride similar to cargill’s I believe. ASO sells it in a flake form. It is not Stearic. Definitely plan on testing them but that's good to know. I'll definitely watch out for that. Never used an additive just labeled "soy modifier". Always just stearic. I'll have to look into it now that I know the name. Thanks!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdcharm Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 14 hours ago, TallTayl said: Do still check for pooling of FO those. American Soy named the phenomenon “fragrance drift” at one point. It basically meant the fragrance sank to a pool toward to lower end of the candle. With that many wooden wicks it could turn interesting in a hurry if one hits a pool of plain old FO, especially toward the bottom where things heat up in a hurry. I remember when we first heard of this fragrance drift thing happening in soy, it almost makes me wonder if it would be a good idea to steer toward non-polar scents with soy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna_Sapphic Posted October 7, 2020 Author Share Posted October 7, 2020 Does anyone know where you might be able to purchase a similar additive to the "Soy Modifier" that isn't from ASO or American Candle? Their shipping prices kill me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 4 hours ago, Anna_Sapphic said: Does anyone know where you might be able to purchase a similar additive to the "Soy Modifier" that isn't from ASO or American Candle? Their shipping prices kill me The only other place I know of is the candle maker store. But it was not the same as the one from American soy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TallTayl Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 I made a few mistakes with Midwest soy today. actually overheated this one to 228*f when o took my eye off the warmer for a minute . Look at how smooth this candle is. I think the clotting you’re finding is because the fragrance may have been added at too low of a temperature. aSO recommends “folding” it in at 120. The temp drop when adding fo to wax that is too cold to accept it fully can cause weird things to happen. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna_Sapphic Posted October 8, 2020 Author Share Posted October 8, 2020 18 hours ago, TallTayl said: I think the clotting you’re finding is because the fragrance may have been added at too low of a temperature. aSO recommends “folding” it in at 120. The temp drop when adding fo to wax that is too cold to accept it fully can cause weird things to happen. I agree, I think a lot of it had to do with my temps not being high enough. I raised them a little when I did my top pour and they came out much better (though not perfect). Really wish I could find another source for the modifier, even if it's just the stand alone ingredients and not the branded stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wax Boy Posted October 15, 2020 Share Posted October 15, 2020 On 10/8/2020 at 9:16 AM, Anna_Sapphic said: I agree, I think a lot of it had to do with my temps not being high enough. I raised them a little when I did my top pour and they came out much better (though not perfect). Really wish I could find another source for the modifier, even if it's just the stand alone ingredients and not the branded stuff. I have 1lb of ASO Soy Modifier. If you PM me your address I will ship it to you. I am using a different kind of wax and don't need it. I have an ASO supplier in my town so it's very easy for me to get if I needed some. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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