dumb question

[Lightning Bug]

HI. I know this sounds like a really dumb question, but here goes anyway: Can you have a wick that is too big and still not be getting a huge melt pool? By too big, I mean flickering and occasional slight smoking in small bursts with a 1/4" MP after 2 1/2 hours on third burn. In BG soy/cottonseed blend with 1/2 tsp vegie stearic, 8.7% mango papaya FO, shave of color block and a 62C wick in a 8 oz. square mason (almost 3" diagonal). Throw is so-so. In most of these jars, a 60C won't make a complete MP. I tried a CD 20 and had a 1/4" MP but hardly any throw. Ideas? TIA. Beth

[scentlady]

I don't use the same soy or additives as you so this may not help much but I know some people like the htp 105 for the 8 oz sq mason. I thought 62C was kinda big for that jar(it mushroomed a lot) and yet 60C didn't work for me either. Is the wax hanging up on the side of the jar or is it just that you think the meltpool should be deeper? Did you trim the wick each time? Cottons do tend to mushroom more. Peronally I'd move on to another wick. Not all scents work in soy. Mango papaya wouldn't throw for me at all so I don't use it.

[topofmurrayhill]

HI. I know this sounds like a really dumb question, but here goes anyway: Can you have a wick that is too big and still not be getting a huge melt pool? By too big, I mean flickering and occasional slight smoking in small bursts with a 1/4" MP after 2 1/2 hours on third burn. In BG soy/cottonseed blend with 1/2 tsp vegie stearic, 8.7% mango papaya FO, shave of color block and a 62C wick in a 8 oz. square mason (almost 3" diagonal). Throw is so-so. In most of these jars, a 60C won't make a complete MP. I tried a CD 20 and had a 1/4" MP but hardly any throw. Ideas? TIA. Beth

Beth, I suspect you may have asked one of the best questions in a while. I have a deep dark suspicion that the CT forum is a den of overwickers.

Most soys don't really melt across the top all that easily. If you take a 3" diameter container and use a wick large enough to create a full melt pool in less than 3 hours, start getting ready to blow out that candle. Once there's no more solid wax feeding the melt pool, that wick is big enough to drop the wax level pretty quickly and be in need of a trim. You'll have too big a flame and sooting in no time. Especially as you get down into the container where the air currents start whipping the flame around.

Making a little inferno to get a full melt pool isn't necessarily going to optimize scent throw either. You might think that more heat = more fragrance evaporating into the air, but have you ever noticed how well candles sometimes throw for a little while after you blow them out? Sometimes much more than when they're lit. Presumably that's because the wick is no longer skimming FO off the surface of the wax and incinerating it before it can evaporate.

So basically, I wouldn't describe a full 1/4" deep melt pool in 2 1/2 hours as "not huge". In fact I think your results are telling you that not only is that enough, but it's probably too much.

[Lightning Bug]

Hey Top! The next question is, if I wick down which was my first thought, wouldn't the MP get smaller and since throw comes at least partly from the melted wax, wouldn't it be less? And, Scentlady,even without the stearic (which I am thinking of dropping) a 105 doesn't usually create a full MP even in a jelly jar with heavier scents for me (many say yes it works for them). I know cottons mushroom, and have tried lots of wicks but not sure where to go next. The Eco 14 doesn't seem large enough, the CD 20 did ok, but no scent throw, the HTP 1312 was too big (but MP was good) and I haven't tried the LX in it yet. As far as throw of this particular FO, it has done wonderfully in some soys I have used, but I suppose each soy has it's own properties. Guess I'll try the 60C first and then, any suggestions, Top? You always have such good answers. Makes me not feel so dumb! Thanks. Beth

[topofmurrayhill]

It's not that I have all the answers, but in the quest to design the best possible product I do tend to think about all the questions. You just happened to bring up the issue of how best to single wick 3 inch containers and I've been thinking about that lately. It would be interesting to have some other people chime in too.

Personally I like a long clean burn and I think a lot of candle lovers like to do longish sessions. And when I say clean, I mean a nice and fairly steady flame without zero visible puffs of soot. From my experience so far in wicking soy, even if you allow 3 hours for a 3 inch container to reach FMP, you're not gonna be able to burn it much beyond that and have your candle meet this clean burning standard.

The advice I read on the NGI site many moons ago has stuck in my head:

The ideal burn pool depth to achieve is ¼ to ½ inch within about 4 to 5 hours. Too large of a wick will produce deeper, quicker burn pools but may also cause sooting and short burn times.

By short burn times I used to think they meant the total life of the candle, but now I think they are referring to the same issue we're discussing. So why not aim for a full melt pool in 4 hours instead of 3? That doesn't seem unreasonable.

I "underwicked" a 3 inch tin this past week. In 3 hour tests there was a lot of hangup but I loved the clean, steady burn and realized that if I were just making candles for myself I would wick them that way. Not only that, but even with 3 hour burns it caught up by the end and left a pretty clean container. Of course that was a tin and I still have to see how it works out in glass.

Maybe the scent throw builds up a little slower but that's not so bad. You're not having much luck with the throw using big wicks anyway. I guess the question for your situation is whether it just takes more time to get a full melt pool with a smaller wick or if you don't get one at all.

[scentlady]

Well Top I know I haven't been able to find the perfect wick for this jar and I think mine is overwicked somewhat but everything smaller that I've tried has tunnelled and not caught up. Right now my 8 oz square mason burns 40 hours. But the wick does need to be kept trimmed. Do you think 40 hours is good or should I be shooting for something longer?

[topofmurrayhill]

Well Top I know I haven't been able to find the perfect wick for this jar and I think mine is overwicked somewhat but everything smaller that I've tried has tunnelled and not caught up. Right now my 8 oz square mason burns 40 hours. But the wick does need to be kept trimmed. Do you think 40 hours is good or should I be shooting for something longer?

I don't rightly know. I don't use that jar, and with my soy stuff I haven't even concerned myself yet with the total burn time of the candles. I'm still concentrating on whether they work to my liking during each individual session. Or maybe I should say, how they should work to satisfy the greatest number of customers.

The fact is, you say to yourself I want to use this jar, and that wax, and one wick. Then you come up with the best solution you can and you have to decide whether that's good enough or not. It can be a tough decision. If it isn't good enough, all you can do is ditch the jar, or the wax, or maybe add a wick.

What surprises me about what the two of you are saying is that you have a wick that makes a full melt pool in 3 hours or less, but the next size down doesn't do that no matter how long you burn it?

[Lightning Bug]

Thanks Top. I see what you mean about the time. My daughter-in-law burns hers for longer than the 3-4 hours. I guess I thought I had to have at least a 1/4" MP by 3 hours to be successful. And, it seems that the MP forms more quickly after several burns. (Or am I just imagining that?) I just wicked the same jar with an 18 CD and it actually seems to be throwing better. Now to wait to see if I ever get a full MP. I know these jars are on the edge of wicking with one wick, but since the opening is the same as a jelly jar, this just doesn't seem logical to need two. And, I do think these are just the neatest (word?) country looking jar. Thanks again. Beth

[Jeana]

I know you don't really want to double wick this container, but if you did you'd save yourself a lot of trouble.You'd be able to wick it down and then You'd get a better throw. I have been doing a lot of testing in the smaller jelly jars lately. I was making myself crazy trying to get a full melt pool with only one wick. I switched to two and it works perfect. The throw has increased a ton and the wax melts completely off the sides, and the flames are a nice size.

Have you tried using the CDN wicks? They aren't as easy to find as some of the other ones but they do great in natural waxes. Better than just the CDs.

Also I used to be able to get a full melt pool with a clean burn in a 16 oz round container with my old wax (Ecosoya) by using LX24, 26,28 depending on the FO. Maybe LX would be good.

I know square jars are super hard to work with, IMO, especially with only one wick. I started out with the square victorian jars but found the round jars much easier to deal with.

[Lightning Bug]

Hi Jeana. I tried a long time ago to double wick these and maybe will try again. Actually I do have CDNs and think they do fairly well. But I like Tops idea about longer burns. When I let them go for 4+ hours, they are making a meltpool and not throwing too badly. Will have to play around with both ideas. What size CDN would you try for double wicking? I like the way the Eco wicks burn also as they have so little mushrooming. Thanks. Beth

[Jeana]

Unfortunately I have only used CDN wicks for my pillars. I have used the 18s and 20s for 3" pillars that worked. So maybe that can give you an idea of where to start at least if you want to try them.

I like ECO in containers too. They burn out to the sides really well. I have been double wicking my jars with ECO 6. (they are about 3.25"wide) This works really well with my wax.

Another good one to try would be RRDs if you have any.

The only trouble with depending on the candle burning longer is that not everyone will burn their candle for 4+ hours, and every time they burn it. You may only be making them for yourself and then this wouldn't matter. But I think it would be hard to tell your customers this and trust they will burn them this long when most people can't remember to trim their wicks.

[topofmurrayhill]

The only trouble with depending on the candle burning longer is that not everyone will burn their candle for 4+ hours, and every time they burn it. You may only be making them for yourself and then this wouldn't matter. But I think it would be hard to tell your customers this and trust they will burn them this long when most people can't remember to trim their wicks.

You're only mentioning one scenario though. Not trusting them to follow instructions doesn't lead to any definite conclusion about how the candle should be designed. Their sessions could be too long (soot) or too short (tunneling) no matter what you do. Design it for 3 hours and they could burn it for 2 or 4.

So which is the bigger problem to watch out for? I haven't heard anyone make a convincing argument either way. Having people experience soot and advising them not to burn as long as they would like bothers me. When I bring it up, candlemakers often say the most common thing they see is people burning for long sessions. But if someone prefers shorter burn times, I can always sell them a smaller candle. Just playing devil's advocate here.

I understand double wicking might be your favored solution, but 3 inches should only be on the verge of needing that. Somehow it seems like a bit of a kludge until you exceed that diameter.

[maryann]

The advice I read on the NGI site many moons ago has stuck in my head:

The ideal burn pool depth to achieve is ¼ to ½ inch within about 4 to 5 hours. Too large of a wick will produce deeper, quicker burn pools but may also cause sooting and short burn times.

That's interesting because alot of what I read says you shouldn't burn past 4 hours for safety reasons. So if your just reaching your ideal mp at that time you now have to blow it out . Curious how many people have to beg their customers to let the melt pool reach the sides before they extinguish so there's no tunneling let alone burn it 4-5 hours (in this busy day and time we live in). I was told when I first started that the deeper the melt pool, the stronger the smell (that's where the scent comes from -the melt pool).

Lightning Bug I would try the HTP 105 (I had an experienced chandlier tell me once that she could get deeper mp's w/ the 104 than w/ the 105's depending on differ variables- dye/fo/container/wick..... so 104 HTP could be an option too). From the board I started out on to the things I've read an inch (talking about the diameter of the candle top) an hour is ideal BUT that was a few years ago MAYBE research as proved differently. How was your throw w/ the 1/4" mp?? That may be small but depending on the FO sometimes that's all you need to get a great throw. The flame and the soot would worry me but trying the HTP may solve that as they're almost self trimming w/out the mushrooming. I'm a big cotton user but the HTP's are what I turn to when the cottons don't work. Cotton's are supposed to burn hotter but for me I've found it to be the exact opposite. These are JMOs GL and keep testing you'll find the right wick yet and have the "perfect" burn!

[Jeana]

You're only mentioning one scenario though. Not trusting them to follow instructions doesn't lead to any definite conclusion about how the candle should be designed. Their sessions could be too long (soot) or too short (tunneling) no matter what you do. Design it for 3 hours and they could burn it for 2 or 4.

So which is the bigger problem to watch out for? I haven't heard anyone make a convincing argument either way. Having people experience soot and advising them not to burn as long as they would like bothers me. When I bring it up, candlemakers often say the most common thing they see is people burning for long sessions. But if someone prefers shorter burn times, I can always sell them a smaller candle. Just playing devil's advocate here.

I understand double wicking might be your favored solution, but 3 inches should only be on the verge of needing that. Somehow it seems like a bit of a kludge until you exceed that diameter.

I try to get the best of both worlds when deciding on the wick. We tend to burn longer, probably because we're always testing. But I would feel the wick would need to be changed if a full MP could not be achieved in 2.5 to 3 hours. Mainly because you probably won't be smelling the candle until it does happen and I don't want customers burning their candle for 4 hours just to get the scent going.

I agree people could buy a smaller candle for shorter burns. But like I said fragrance is the whole point for burning a container candle -IMO.

I think the ideal wick would allow someone to have a burn last a couple of hours, maybe not reaching full MP and if the next burn was longer, it could catch up and not just tunnel down. Wouldn't that be the best scenario?

The whole thing about double wicking really bugs me to do. When I was working with Ecosoya I didn't even have to think about it, even in my 16 oz containers. The wax burned clean off the sides and all was well, except frosting and scent throw. I've tested about 6 other soys in the past few months and all of them have issues with burning out to the sides and getting a full melt pool. Even the smaller containers have a hard time getting the hang up off the sides. But these waxes outperform Ecosoya in many other ways so I am just learning new ways to adapt to the wax instead of making the wax adapt to me. So, you're right that double wicking a 3" jar shouldn't be needed, but with some waxes it may be needed. And if using a larger wick doesn't work then it may be the only option.

[topofmurrayhill]

I try to get the best of both worlds when deciding on the wick. We tend to burn longer, probably because we're always testing. But I would feel the wick would need to be changed if a full MP could not be achieved in 2.5 to 3 hours. Mainly because you probably won't be smelling the candle until it does happen and I don't want customers burning their candle for 4 hours just to get the scent going.

Your points are well taken, but getting back to the original question...

Lightning Bug gets soot single wicking a 3" container for FMP in 2.5 to 3 hours. The wick is also too big for optimal scent throw.

In my case I'm probably dealing with an easier situation with CB-135, yet it's still slightly a stretch compared to what I can do with paraffin. I'll get a clean burn for 3 hours and FMP but then I'm crossing my fingers it'll make it to 4 without misbehaving and not 100% satisfied with the results.

In both cases you have to imagine that some users won't trim the wick as scrupulously as we do in our tests.

I'm not against double wicking, but doing that for a 3" container is getting a little lame. Wicking down a notch is the only other solution and I'm just saying it's not necessarily so bad. Cleaner burn, quite possibly better throw, more protection against wick trimming negligence. You've eliminated some things that can go wrong and you caution the user about tunneling.