Calling Seasoned Candle Makers- Thoughts on adding crisco and coconut oil!

[hurricanecreek15]

I would love some feeback on adding crisco or coconut oil in my wax. I use GB 464. some throw great others don't. I have heard you can add coconut oil or crisco to enhance throw. Is this true? If so how much do ya'll add?

 

Also, would like to know if you use vybar in soy? I have heard mixed reviews on this. Thanks in advance!!!!!

[chuck_35550]

Crisco comes from the good old days wnen you only had  a few choices with paraffin waxes. Today's Crisco is hydrogenated soybean oil, palm oil and would most likely junk up your wicking more than anything else. People used to put about a tablespoon per pound for improved throw with paraffin. I have used coconut with my parasoy and with paraffin votive wax. About 1 tsp per pound  or maybe a tablespoon at most. It helps with appearance and hot throw was marginal. Vybar can lock your scent out but I personally don't have any experience with that additive. I would suggest you try other waxes, rather than trying to make  the 464 do what you want with costly additives. JMO

 

Steve

[Guest OldGlory]

There have been several threads on this very subject in the last few weeks, so you might gain some insight by going back thru the old posts and seeing what responses have already been given.

I've been using 464 for many years now and never had to consider using something extra to get a good scent throw. I get an awesome throw without it.

[Shoegal]

+1 for OldGlory and Chuck's posts. You really don't need to add anything to get a good scent throw in 464. Try a longer cure time if you're sure that you're using fragrances formulated for soy wax (not all are) and the proper wick size.

[Trappeur]

What temperature are you adding your oil at and how much oil are you putting in?

 

Trappeur

[hurricanecreek15]

Trappeur- I am adding F0 at 170 and using 1oz per 8 oz ..

[Guest OldGlory]

Whoa, that is twice the amount of FO that you need. I use 464 and add FO at around 6%. You are adding FO at 12%.

Are you weighing the wax and the FO? If not, you need to get a good scale and do that. I would suggest adding 1 oz weighed out fragrance oil into 16 oz weighed out wax.

Are you allowing your candle to sit for 2 weeks before you test burn it? If not, you need to wait 2 weeks. Also, I would suggest finding people to test burn candles for you so you can get a better idea of how they are burning and throwing.

Which wicks are you using?

[hurricanecreek15]

I am using htp wicks 93 and 104, I want a self trimming wick. but I am not getting a complete burn pool either so you think I need to wick up? THanks for all the help!!!! I usually let them set for 1 week I will try 2 .

[Trappeur]

What jar and what size wick are you using Steph?

I may be able to make a suggestion for your wick size as I have always used htp's b/4 I started doing cd's.

Old Glory swears by the premiers in her 464 so she can probably give you a starting point on where to go with your wicks and maybe they might work for you.

 

Well, like Old Glory said, first off cut back on your fragrance oil as this comes into play also why you would not be getting a full melt pool.

 

Also is this your first burn on the candles you've started?

 

Trappeur

[Guest OldGlory]

How are you measuring your wax and fragrance?

[hurricanecreek15]

I'm going to answer both ?'s at once.

 

Trappeur I am using a straight sided mason jar 8 oz but I want to use tumbler 11.5 oz from peak. I used 93 and 104 didn't get a full melt pool and I have burned them several times for hours at a time. I almost switched to 4627 but I just don't like all that smoke. Everyone seems to want soy.. I love the ease of the 464 if I could get it to throw. I will for sure cut back on oil. and see how that goes. I have used SOOO many 1 oz samples and how I feel like I should have used less and there might have been some keepers.. I guess we learn from mistakes huh?? I am soo glad I found this site!!! I haven't found a good explanation for wicks I just go by what the website suggest to use but I know that I want self trimming. I used 51-32-18c from RE and I hate that they pop if you don't trim them. it gets black EVERYWHERE!  I would love some suggestions as far as different wicks. What is the benefits of a cd wick?

 

Old Glory- I am using a digital scale. I measure 1 0z out and I measure 8oz out of wax. I do tare between.

 

Also Do you suggest pouring when slushy?

[Guest OldGlory]

Good, you are measuring with the right tools. Now, just go .5 oz with 8 oz wax. I think you will see a difference soon.

[Trappeur]

 Steph,

 

This is my honest opinion.  Please don't feel offended or take it the wrong way, but this is how I see things and my honest opinion when starting out to make candles and trying to figure out waxes, and wicking .  Everyone here has been here and done that so all we can do is offer suggestions from learning by trial and error and testing and much much patience (very important)....

 

First off, 464 is a really nice wax and very easy to work with....So many posts come up here of people already moving on or asking questions of why this is happening and that is happening and what astounds me is they are already moving onto another wax when one of the good waxes (like the 464) they are using has not been played out to the end when they haven't even given the wax a chance to perform.What made them make up their minds to go and try another wax so soon in the early part of the game?    You can't honestly form an honest opinion about the wax until:

1.  Get the right amount of oil into the wax.

2.  Test and test many many different wicks until you find the size (you might have to change styles here....htp's, premiers, cd's. 

3.  Patience of letting those jars made until the full cure time is reached  (very important for throw)

4.  Once you start burning your testers, those wicks might not work and you then have your throw problem, wicks drowning, tunneling, overwicked, underwicked, etc.etc.  So now you have to start more new testers and wait weeks and weeks more to test this same jar and same wax.  This is the game we all play. But YOU CAN MASTER THIS WAX (464).  You can't get over anxious (which we all do) and you have to try and not get discouraged (we all do that too). But this is the way it works and no matter what wax you choose, you have to go through this sequence on all testings.  Keep searching on this board and ask your questions as stupid as you may think they are when they aren't.  And everyone has their opinions and you can take everyone's opinions and put them to work into your wax and you are going to come up with your own opinion after.  It always amazes me that so many use the same wicks and the same wax and pour at the same temperatures and we all get different findings.  Different parts of the country we all live in dictate what pour temperature will work best.

 

When I first started out, I started with C3 and learned by my sister in Maine who had been making candles for years.,  I joined the Bittercreek forum and then Craftserver and read and read and experimented by what others had to say.  I asked so many questions to learn as much as I could.  I did what others did.  Some things worked and some didn't but I didn't give up.   And too, I didn't move onto another wax.  I knew C3 was a good wax but a lot of others didn't like working with the wax....There used to be a candle maker here on this board named Stella and she was a c3 user and I learned a lot from her and I finally mastered that wax.  Oh, sure it had its problems (but heck, each and every wax has the same darn thing) but I didn't give up and then it started coming together.  I used to color my candles....no more..couldn't handle the frosting and then went natural and never looked back.  I figured out what oils were compatable with the c3 and if they didn't throw, I didn't use that oil and moved on.  I was determined to make that wax work....Yep, it sure took a lot of bucks but in the end I found my wax and what worked for me.  Then one day as I was ordering some more wax from one of my suppliers, they were out of stock and she suggested I try the GB 415 which she told me I could pretty much use the same size wicks as the c3 and she was right.  But I couldn't stand waiting to pour at the slush stage but I did it and it worked, then she said I might like the 464 which has the same characteristics and she was right on that too, so I've pretty much stayed with the 464 for no reason really.\

Though I did buy a 50pound box of the c3 last week because of the good pricing but I know that wax and how to wick and no problem for me there.

 

From the questions you have asked, you have been given great advice.  Your size wicks in the jelly jar of htp 93 and 104 are my choice of wicks.  But didn't you do at 12% oil?  So change that, wait for the cure time and test burn.  If not happy then change your wicks if you want to.  If not maybe that oil isn't compatable.  What fragrance oil by the way are you using and where did you get it from?  Maybe others here have tried it and it is not a good thrower for the 464.  Also make sure you are putting the oil in your wax at 180 to 185 (that is just a suggestion from me as that is how I do mine)...and stir good.  Now pour temperature for me to get good smooth 1 pour tops is ahhhh somewhere between 140 and 145 give or take...It varies....Your going to have to experiment here for this.  Don't worry about what your tops look like for right now when learning.  You can always critque that.  Most have to do a small 2'nd pour.  You want right now.....correct wicking and good throw and a properly safely made candle.  Also frosting issues....so many can't deal with that especially when coloring.  If you are going to sell down the road, that is where more testings come into play.  But from what I know and read, that is just a natural characteristic thing for soy and your just going to have to embrace it or go to a paraffin, or some type of soy/paraffin blend.  Have you ever looked a candles in shops?  We are our own worst critique.  People who buy candles want a great throwing fragrance.  What does it matter that after the candle is burned that they have cottage cheese tops?.  Doesn't bother me and I highly doubt that the consumer does either.  

 

I don't know anything about the 4627 wax you mentioned you tried but didn't like the sooting...so let me ask you about it?  How long have you working with that wax?  What testings have you done with it? You have the correct wicks or tried different wicks?  Cure time?   I don't see much posted about that wax so can't offer any suggestions.  

 

Well, good luck and hang in there and ask your questions?  I hope I wasn't too hard here and I would never hurt your feelings. 

 

Trappeur

Edited June 11, 2015 by Trappeur

[Trappeur]

Another thing I forgot to mention when test burning....Your jelly jar you have been using.  Where are you using it?  In a big room, great room?  Unless it is some great powerfrul throwing fragrance I find that jar needs to go in a small room (for me).  There are exceptions, like pine fragrances or macintosh apple.  So consider that.  I have a good friend who only gets her candles from me as she likes certain scents she can't find elsewhere.  Now she is in  a log home with vaulted ceilings and what she does as I suggested is burn 2 same candles as her home is large.

 

Trappeur

[PhoenixFyre]

Another thing I forgot to mention when test burning....Your jelly jar you have been using.  Where are you using it?  In a big room, great room?  Unless it is some great powerfrul throwing fragrance I find that jar needs to go in a small room (for me).  There are exceptions, like pine fragrances or macintosh apple.  So consider that.  I have a good friend who only gets her candles from me as she likes certain scents she can't find elsewhere.  Now she is in  a log home with vaulted ceilings and what she does as I suggested is burn 2 same candles as her home is large.

 

Trappeur

 

This bit of advice is so right on, Trappeur. I just recently had a Homer Simpson "doh" moment with this exact problem. I've been trying to master wicks for paraffin and 11.5 oz tumblers and have been pulling out my hair trying to figure out why I wasn't getting much hot throw. I was testing them in my living room and front dining room...and then it dawned on me that the tumbler sizes might just be too small for those larger rooms. Finally moved one into my daughter's bedroom to test...and BAM! Walked into her room and just basked in the coconut lime goodness! The HT was great and I could even smell it when walking past her door. So yes, when testing for hot throw, the place you're testing does make a difference.

[hurricanecreek15]

trappeur- I really appreciate the info. I like a straight shooter    you ask why I switched to 4627 i wanted 2 waxes to try to see which I like better. 4627 is very messy and not worth fooling with. I do like the 464 so I am going to only test in that wax until I can get it to work for me. I am testing in my living room and like you said prolly need to move to a different, smaller room.  You ask me about how long I have been using waxes I have used both since January. I have been going back and forth to see which i like better. I let them cure for 1 week. ill let them cure for 2 now. As far as scents I use Aroma Haven ( RE) and Just Scents.  monkey farts RE watermelon lemonade JS  are a few off the top of my head. I won't be addind color to them . ill decrease oil as well !! Thanks so much for your help Ill make some this weekend and come back in 2 weeks and let you know how it goes!!! I have some more of the htp I am going to try them and see if like you said it was too much oil.

[Pam W]

This bit of advice is so right on, Trappeur. I just recently had a Homer Simpson "doh" moment with this exact problem. I've been trying to master wicks for paraffin and 11.5 oz tumblers and have been pulling out my hair trying to figure out why I wasn't getting much hot throw. I was testing them in my living room and front dining room...and then it dawned on me that the tumbler sizes might just be too small for those larger rooms. Finally moved one into my daughter's bedroom to test...and BAM! Walked into her room and just basked in the coconut lime goodness! The HT was great and I could even smell it when walking past her door. So yes, when testing for hot throw, the place you're testing does make a difference.

 

I've found that the placement of the candle in any particular room can have a lot to do with the perceived HT.  My house is small and my A/C return vent is in the small living room.  I get very little HT when burning a candle in the LR when A/C is running because the return vent just SUCKS it up.  So I usually place candles in a bedroom/bathroom and the A/C return then pulls the wonder scent thru the house.

 

Natural drafts are something to be watched too.  If I burn a candle in the LR with doors open, a natural draft carries the scent from LR, thru the dining room & kitchen and straight out the back door.  I get a wonderful scent in the back yard ... hehehe

[PhoenixFyre]

I've found that the placement of the candle in any particular room can have a lot to do with the perceived HT.  My house is small and my A/C return vent is in the small living room.  I get very little HT when burning a candle in the LR when A/C is running because the return vent just SUCKS it up.  So I usually place candles in a bedroom/bathroom and the A/C return then pulls the wonder scent thru the house.

 

Natural drafts are something to be watched too.  If I burn a candle in the LR with doors open, a natural draft carries the scent from LR, thru the dining room & kitchen and straight out the back door.  I get a wonderful scent in the back yard ... hehehe

Too true, Pam, and this is something that I will need to add to my list of things to think about when testing. Now that we're in AC weather, I will definitely take notes of what happens with my candles with and without the AC running.

[Karen M]

I once added the Crisco, back in the day, not now. When I used straight soy, I added the coconut oil, to help with the appearance issues. But nowdays I only use my wax, 6006, love it or I use Candlewics cbl-130, no adding anything.

[Shon]

Steph,

This is my honest opinion. Please don't feel offended or take it the wrong way, but this is how I see things and my honest opinion when starting out to make candles and trying to figure out waxes, and wicking . Everyone here has been here and done that so all we can do is offer suggestions from learning by trial and error and testing and much much patience (very important)....

First off, 464 is a really nice wax and very easy to work with....So many posts come up here of people already moving on or asking questions of why this is happening and that is happening and what astounds me is they are already moving onto another wax when one of the good waxes (like the 464) they are using has not been played out to the end when they haven't even given the wax a chance to perform.What made them make up their minds to go and try another wax so soon in the early part of the game? You can't honestly form an honest opinion about the wax until:

1. Get the right amount of oil into the wax.

2. Test and test many many different wicks until you find the size (you might have to change styles here....htp's, premiers, cd's.

3. Patience of letting those jars made until the full cure time is reached (very important for throw)

4. Once you start burning your testers, those wicks might not work and you then have your throw problem, wicks drowning, tunneling, overwicked, underwicked, etc.etc. So now you have to start more new testers and wait weeks and weeks more to test this same jar and same wax. This is the game we all play. But YOU CAN MASTER THIS WAX (464). You can't get over anxious (which we all do) and you have to try and not get discouraged (we all do that too). But this is the way it works and no matter what wax you choose, you have to go through this sequence on all testings. Keep searching on this board and ask your questions as stupid as you may think they are when they aren't. And everyone has their opinions and you can take everyone's opinions and put them to work into your wax and you are going to come up with your own opinion after. It always amazes me that so many use the same wicks and the same wax and pour at the same temperatures and we all get different findings. Different parts of the country we all live in dictate what pour temperature will work best.

When I first started out, I started with C3 and learned by my sister in Maine who had been making candles for years., I joined the Bittercreek forum and then Craftserver and read and read and experimented by what others had to say. I asked so many questions to learn as much as I could. I did what others did. Some things worked and some didn't but I didn't give up. And too, I didn't move onto another wax. I knew C3 was a good wax but a lot of others didn't like working with the wax....There used to be a candle maker here on this board named Stella and she was a c3 user and I learned a lot from her and I finally mastered that wax. Oh, sure it had its problems (but heck, each and every wax has the same darn thing) but I didn't give up and then it started coming together. I used to color my candles....no more..couldn't handle the frosting and then went natural and never looked back. I figured out what oils were compatable with the c3 and if they didn't throw, I didn't use that oil and moved on. I was determined to make that wax work....Yep, it sure took a lot of bucks but in the end I found my wax and what worked for me. Then one day as I was ordering some more wax from one of my suppliers, they were out of stock and she suggested I try the GB 415 which she told me I could pretty much use the same size wicks as the c3 and she was right. But I couldn't stand waiting to pour at the slush stage but I did it and it worked, then she said I might like the 464 which has the same characteristics and she was right on that too, so I've pretty much stayed with the 464 for no reason really.\

Though I did buy a 50pound box of the c3 last week because of the good pricing but I know that wax and how to wick and no problem for me there.

From the questions you have asked, you have been given great advice. Your size wicks in the jelly jar of htp 93 and 104 are my choice of wicks. But didn't you do at 12% oil? So change that, wait for the cure time and test burn. If not happy then change your wicks if you want to. If not maybe that oil isn't compatable. What fragrance oil by the way are you using and where did you get it from? Maybe others here have tried it and it is not a good thrower for the 464. Also make sure you are putting the oil in your wax at 180 to 185 (that is just a suggestion from me as that is how I do mine)...and stir good. Now pour temperature for me to get good smooth 1 pour tops is ahhhh somewhere between 140 and 145 give or take...It varies....Your going to have to experiment here for this. Don't worry about what your tops look like for right now when learning. You can always critque that. Most have to do a small 2'nd pour. You want right now.....correct wicking and good throw and a properly safely made candle. Also frosting issues....so many can't deal with that especially when coloring. If you are going to sell down the road, that is where more testings come into play. But from what I know and read, that is just a natural characteristic thing for soy and your just going to have to embrace it or go to a paraffin, or some type of soy/paraffin blend. Have you ever looked a candles in shops? We are our own worst critique. People who buy candles want a great throwing fragrance. What does it matter that after the candle is burned that they have cottage cheese tops?. Doesn't bother me and I highly doubt that the consumer does either.

I don't know anything about the 4627 wax you mentioned you tried but didn't like the sooting...so let me ask you about it? How long have you working with that wax? What testings have you done with it? You have the correct wicks or tried different wicks? Cure time? I don't see much posted about that wax so can't offer any suggestions.

Well, good luck and hang in there and ask your questions? I hope I wasn't too hard here and I would never hurt your feelings.

Trappeur

Hello Trappeur,

GREAT advice and very well put! You are absolutely right! I started making soy candles December of last year, using GB464; and I'm still experimenting. It takes a lot to perfect this craft... NO way around that. MASTERING this wax is exactly what I must do! Thank you for that. I was on the fence about switching to another soy wax or blending paraffin.

Candle making using GB464 demands time and patience. Also, there's a lot of factors to take into consideration: weather, room temperatures/size, airflow in room, container diameter, color, wick sizing, wax pool, seepage, fragrance oil etc. The process is a recipe requiring the right ingredients for perfection!

You have given so much valuable advice and suggestions in this one post.

Thank you very much for passing it forward.

Shon

Edited September 25, 2015 by Shon