Certain Giving Good First Burn and Smokey Second Burn

[wakeylad]

Hi All:

I'm getting a pretty good burn on the first burn but smoke on the 2nd burn. I just wondered is this is common. I was testing a bunch of candles with different fragrance oils and different wicks. They all burn beautifully on the first 3-hour burn (3" Diameter Status). I let them sit for 24-hours and performed a second burn; about 2/3 of the candles were smoking. I moved them to the stove top and put the extractor on very low (didn't want to set off the smoke alarm again). After 15 minutes or so they stopped smoking except for 2 or 3 candles. So, apart from those, they all returned to the testing area.

I'm guessing that as the wick changes from an new, unburned, wick to a burned wick that this affects subsequent burns. I just wondered if this is true and, if so, how long the new wick needs to burn to affect subsequent burns in this way.

I have some theories as to the testing I can do to provide/disprove this but don't want to reinvent the wheel when there are so many knowledgeable people on here.

Hope everyone had a good weekend and thanks in advance for any replies.

Neil

[Stella1952]

What kind of wax? What kind/how much FO? Additives/amts.? What kind of wicks/sizes? Which of the various FOs & wicks smoked? How long were the wicks trimmed initially? Did you trim them before beginning the second burn? To the same length?

What's an "extractor"?

Container candles do burn differently on the first burn vs. subsequent burns, especially as they go lower and lower into the container. Perhaps it has something to do with the fresh wick initially, but that doesn't last long! I think it has more to do with the level of the candle being closer to the top and the way the air currents set up as the candle burns down into the container. Photos would help...

[Pam W]

What's an "extractor"?

QUOTE]

I moved them to the stove top and put the extractor

------------

Ask yourself "what is above the stove top"

[Stella1952]

Ask yourself "what is above the stove top"

The fan? The range hood? The oven? The microwave?

Is an "extractor" some kind of super duper vent fan or range hood or what?

I'm not familiar with the term, which is why I asked... Do you know what it is, Pam?

[JanetsCandles]

I assume it's a fan in the range hood.

[wakeylad]

Yes, it's the extractor fan on the range hood. On low it doesn't really affect the flame as they do settle down after a while sitting on the stove.

All wicks trimmed. Actually usually various oils for test burn purposes and plain 4630 out of the box.

Thanks

Neil

[wakeylad]

I'll post more info once I get to work.

[wakeylad]

Thanks for the feedback so far.

I know that these containers are overwicked. My interest is in why they burn okay on the first burn as opposed to subsequent burns. Maybe the wax that the wick was primed with helped with the first burn? I'm sure, as Stella mentioned, the first burn is at the top of the container and so isn't affected as much by the container itself. I was just trying to figure out if I needed to burn for the full three hours to figure out if a container is overwicked since, for me, the first burn doesn't seem to be a good indicator.

I'm going to do a 15 minute burn on a new candle this evening, blow it out and light again after a few hours to see if it smokes on the second lighting. Or maybe I'll carefully pull the 3-hour wick and place it into an unwicked candle and see if it smokes on the first burn.

Thanks again for all the input.

Neil

[chuck_35550]

It's a bad idea to burn for only 15 minutes and then "blow" it out. The wax has a memory and by not burning long enough you might get a tunnel effect and pulling the burned wick out of one container and sticking it into a new container doesn't prove much of anything IMHO. Do you trim your wicks after blowing them out ( I blow mine out too cause I'm too lazy to dip the wick in the wax to put it out) ? Sooting is always a bi-product of combustion but heavy sooting might indicate that your wick is not burning the fuel efficiently due to heavy amounts of vanilla or cinnamon or that the wick is just wrong for that wax. There are a lot of good posts about 4630 to get more information. HTH

Steve

[jeanie353]

My interest is in why they burn okay on the first burn as opposed to subsequent burns.

Its very common for a wick to burn nice on the first burn and then things change from the next burn on. Once you get to know your wax/wicks you'll be able to tell on the first burn if they are over wicked or not. For instance....if you get a full MP on the 1st burn its over wicked. It is desirable to have the hangup go away on the 2nd...preferably 3rd burn which is when they reach full MP. The reason for this is because the farther the candle burns into the jar the hotter things get.

If you don't get a full MP on the first burn then I would continue to test more to get farther down into the container as that is where you are really going to see how your wick/wax system performs.

As far as smoking....it could be several reasons. Too large wick and FO overload are two factors that will cause that. It seems with the amount of smoke you mentioned that something may need to be adjusted.

HTH

[Stella1952]

I was just trying to figure out if I needed to burn for the full three hours to figure out if a container is overwicked since, for me, the first burn doesn't seem to be a good indicator.

When you are testing candles to see if you have the right wicking, you do not burn them under any kind of fan or in a draft.

If the candle smokes so much that it sets off the smoke detector, the most likely issue is that candle system is NOT working, unless you either have a smoke detector that is poorly located, too sensitive, or dinner's ready. A candle should not smoke excessively during ANY part of its burn. If the candle's componenent ingredients (formula) is out of whack, it won't matter what wick you use - the wax will not burn well.

To ascertain how a wick will perform in a container candle, you need to burn the candle all the way to the bitter end because conditions in the container change as it burns down. Burning for 15 minutes, pulling the wick from here, inserting into there, etc. is a waste of time. When you are trying to get solid testing data, it pays to use a methodical approach. Your approach is all over the place and so your data will be skewed.

As for WHY the wick is smoking, you did not provide any more answers about the candle and its composition, so I can't offer any more ideas to assist. Good luck! :-)

[wakeylad]

Hi:

I am using a methodical approach and I know from my career that the more data I gather the more I increase my chances of obtaining better results - whether the result of an experiment is good or bad, the data obtained from that experiment will always be good. If anything, lack of data would cause my end results to be skewed.

Let's assume I made two identical candles with the same wick and, for testing purposes, used the "poke-hole" method to insert the wick. I burned the first candle (candle #1) for 3 hours. The next day I relight candle #1 and it smokes (let's assume heavily for the sake of argument). Now I move the wick in candle #1 to candle #2 and insert a new wick (same type) in candle #1. Now I have an new candle with an old wick and an old candle with a new wick. What results would you expect? Candle #1 to smoke and candle #2 to burn fine? What if candle #1 now burns fine with a new wick and candle #2 smokes? To me, that data would be invaluable.

BTW, the smoke detector went off previously with an old batch of 4630 that had a badly grease stained box after being kept in the garage for a year (hot summer). It may have been a bad batch but I personally think it was the storage conditions. Well, that thing smoked like a chimney. I'd been using this box for color experiments but virtually every wick I used smoked with the plain 4630 wax (and I mean every wick: HTP, CD, LX, Zinc, Paper, Cotton, etc). I read about all the smoking issues with this wax and had just received 4 new boxes and was a little worried. To cut a long story short, the newly delivered wax burns nice and clean and the smoke detector hasn't gone off since.

Again, thanks for all the input.

Neil

[minx]

Neil,

If you say all your wicks smoke on the second burn, no matter what wick, then I would think it would have something to do with the wax and any additives you are adding to it. It might burn well on the first burn because it is the top of the container. I know when you burn candles and let them reharden and then burn again the "look" of the wax can change, so it would be feasable(??) that your formula has something to do with it?

What wax are you using, what are you adding to it?

[wakeylad]

Hi Minx:

The "no matter what wick" issue that I had was really with the bad batch (most likely caused by bad storage) of the 4630 I was using, but I have noticed quite a few wicks that burn fine on the first burn with plain 4630 and even with 10% FO added or an oversized wick, then smoke like a chimney on the second burn. Right now I'm not actually testing the candles I have for a perfect burn but rather doing some comparison testing. That testing is going fine. Whether the candle burns perfectly or not, at this stage, doesn't matter for me. Of course, it will matter when it comes to the final candle. However, for my testing purposes, whether a candle wick burns differently on the first burn than on subsequent burns does matter. It will matter everytime I change a wax or a fragrance oil or add something else into the mix. I'll still end up testing the whole candle of course.

This evening, I relit a candle that smoked during my Sunday test - that was my third 3-hour test burn. It smoked as expected. I let it burn for 15 minutes. Everytime I walked by the candle, I would get a waft of smoke from the flame and some smoke anytime the flame would dance. I videotaped it for my own records. I let it burn for 15 mins just to expose enough of the unburnt wick to pull it out with my needle-nose pliers. I inserted a new wick of the same size and let the wax harden up again. I trimmed the new wick to 1/4" and it's not smoking. I can even blew on the flame and it doesn't smoke. It's burning nicely - draft or no draft. I exposed more wick by removing some wax from the melt pool - still no smoke. I'm expecting that it wil smoke again during tomorrow's test. To me, the real test would be to see how a new candle would burn with the wick I just removed. I don't have one to hand right now so that would have to wait for a few days.

As far as the formula goes, I'm pretty sure I messed this one up but the testing regime I'm developing needs to be able to identify good and bad formulas, so I'm milking the bad results for all the data I can get. Since we learn more from our mistakes, I'm trying to see how much I can learn from this one. (I accidentally added 10% FO instead of 6%). I'm suspecting that the wax used to prime the wick may somehow "shield" the wick from the candle wax the first time it's used (as I said, I added a new wick to a smokey candle and it's burning nicely still - currently after two hours). Maybe once the actual wax used in the candle permeates the wick and replaces the priming wax, then that's when things start to change. I guess I could test that theory by sticking a wick in the oven to melt off the priming wax and see if that smokes on the first burn.

Anyway, I appreciate all the feedback, i was just curious to see if anyone else had the same experience?

Thanks everyone and have a good night.

Neil