C3 vs 464 advice

[RichardLOZ]

Well I have finally got around to trying the C3.

Love the way the wax looks, nice smooth tops, minimal wet spots and so far no frosting.

The burn test is however another matter.

Testing 2 scents in 2 jars that I have been doing for quite a while with my usual 464 / palm combo and that I know burns really well, I did not have so much luck with the C3.

Using a 12 oz, 4" apothecary jar and a 16 oz, 4" apothecary jar the pour went really well.

I was using a CDN 22 in one scent and a CDN 24 in the other which are my usual wicks in those scents and 464 / palm.

First burn I achieved FMP, with quite a large flame. Ok so might need to wick down based on that, however no decisions to be made until much further into the testing.

Now some 36 hours later, the burn is not going so well on either scent. Reasonably large shrooms, maybe 1/4" hang on some areas of the jar, frosty looking after cooling in some areas, just altogether not nice at all and not something I would be happy with.

HT was however pretty good, don't know if better than my usual combo, but was definitely acceptable though. The top of the jar also seemed to me to be quite hot and flame remained reasonably large throughout the burn. Some sooting on tops of jars, which I have never had with this wick / oil / jar combo in 464 / palm.

Considering no FMP after the 1st burn and the fact that the jars were quite hot, with a large flame, it seems that going to a smaller wick size goes against what this candle needs, however that is the next step I will be taking. Looking to drop the 22 down to both a CDN 20 and CDN 18 for testing purposes and the CDN 24 down to a CDN 22 & CDN 20 for that scent. Stranger things have happened.

I did have high hopes for this wax based on my reading and then on my pour, but alas if I cannot get a nice burn with a single wick in my 4" jar, then I guess it will be back to my 464 / palm combo which did work very well, however I am trying to consolidate the amount of raw material I have on hand at any one time, so working with 1 wax rather than 2 did make sense, however not at the risk of producing product I am not happy with.

For those who use C3, particularly in the 4" diameter jars, your advice will be appreciated and well received. Do not go down the double wick path as I am not going to go there. I am lazy and actually do not like multiple wicks unless the diameter is huge, so am definitely going to be staying with a single wicked system. If that means going back to my usual wax blend, then so be it.

My ears and mind are open and I am listening

I will try to get some pics, when my damn camera battery is charged. Never charged when you need it!

Cheers

Richard

[Stella1952]

Richard, I use a CDN 22 & 24 in the 4" containers I use, which are straight sided, no shoulder. At this size, size and shape start to really matter! I use 1 Tbsp. PP of USA with C3 as well as UV inhibitor and 1 oz. FO/PP. Until the candle burns about halfway down, there is some hangup. It catches up at the end and the jar ends up clean with some residue. Little if any frosting on the hangup. The HT is very good. I don't shoot for FMP on the first burn of any of my candles. CDNs go all the way up to size 30, so if the 24 doesn't get it for you, wick up.

Having said that, I don't stock and am not a fan of 4" containers for several reasons. It takes a LONG time to test and burn them. Customers frequently don't maintain their big candles well and by halfway, they often look disgraceful. I find that it takes longer to sell large containers than it does smaller ones. In the time it takes for me to sell 1 big 'un, I can sell a couple of dozen smaller candles. 2.5" - 3.5" (no more than 16 oz.) are the best sellers for me.

When I make/sell candles wider than 3.5", I go toward the shallow straight-sided bowl style containers in excess of 4" in width rather than deep jar styles and do use multiple wicks (3) in those. HTH

Edited March 3, 2012 by Stella1952

[RichardLOZ]

Hey Stella

I am somewhat hesitant to wick up considering that I am already getting some sooting on the top of the jar. I am however still not getting a FMP at 3/4 of the burn. Hmm interesting concept. Perhaps the C3 might require double wicking in my apothecary jars, guess something else to test. The blend of 464 / palm that I usually use has always given me a FMP from about burn 2 or 3 in every oil I use except for Frangipani which I cannot get to burn nicely in a 4" jar at all.

I might try to blend some palm with the C3 for another test, and will also try double wicking (ahhhhhhhhhh), perhaps starting with CDN 10 / 12 to see how that goes. I guess while I am testing I still have my usual blend to keep me going, but you know how it is when a supplier is a little closer and you can see a few dollars in savings. Such is life - onwards and upwards back to the lab to pour some further testers

Richard

[minx]

Stella, what is USA?

[bart70]

Hi Richard,

I have done a bit of testing in C3, all unfragranced at this stage in Metro's, and currently have some burning in Candelina's.

I cannot comment much on the Candlelina's as I have never used them before and have no prior data, but my experience in the Metro's thus far is that C3 appears easier to get good pour results (less frosting/rough tops issues) and is not as sensitive to pouring technique as 464. So far my burn results have been on par with testing I have done with the 464/palm blend (although my ratios are probably different to yours).

I am still seeing small shrooms that come and go during different phases of the burn (mostly at the start) which was similar to what I experienced with the 464 blend. No gain or loss here at this stage of the game.

I did try some C3/palm blends unwicked in metro jars to see how the addition of palm affected pouring - I got a lot of wet spot issues although the surfaces were good. I did not progress to the burning stages as I was not happy with the wet spots.

Whilst it is early days for me, I am liking the C3 overall. I think it will still have the same shrooming issues we see with other waxes here, and to be honest I am convinced it is the wick type and not the wax causing that (am no expert though - wish we had more wick choice here!). I like the pour characteristics and lack of wet spots/rough tops/frosting. Just waiting to finish this round of plain testing to start with some fragranced testing.

I am no help with your 4" jars.....I have never ventured that large!

Let us know how you go....

Bart

[Paul]

Stella, what is USA?

I'm not Stella but I just asked this question myself.

USA = Universal Soy Additive

http://candlemarketingsweeti.com/blog/2010/02/candle-additives-universal-soy-additive/

[minx]

I'm not Stella but I just asked this question myself.

USA = Universal Soy Additive

http://candlemarketingsweeti.com/blog/2010/02/candle-additives-universal-soy-additive/

Thanks Paul .... and I don't mind that you're not Stella

[Stella1952]

USA = Universal Soy Additive = distilled monoglycerides This is a food industry additive carried by very few suppliers. Be sure you get USA and not UA, which is for paraffin. There IS a difference.

Regarding mushrooming: In the absense of a photo, whether this is any real concern depends on how we're defining problematic mushrooms. If the *mushrooms* appear as 3 little balls at the tip of the wick that are not more than twice as large as the strand of the wick they are on, this isn't a wrist-slitter. If, however, the little balls are coagulating into a larger mass of carbon that's glowing and increasing the heat in the container (aka the *fragrance balls* touted by morons to make the throw on their candles so special), that needs action.

Mushrooming happens for many different reasons...

Is the flame hot enough to fully combust the wax & additives (dyes, FOs, etc.)?

Is the wick too large and starving for air?

Would the wick self-trim if left alone?

CDNs and CDs are self-trimming wicks so their posture should curve enough to keep the wick tip in the hottest zone of the flame. If incombustible impurities collect at the wick tip (little balls) they usually fall off or self-trim as the wick burns but when something is wonky, these 'shrooms become larger and larger and larger until they threaten to eat New York City.

I am assuming that during your testing, you are trimming the wick to 1/4" before beginning a new test session... After burning for several hours (particularly a big candle with a big wick), it isn't uncommon to see some minor 'shrooms as described above. This also occurs during a powerburn and unless there is something really *off* about the wax (the FO, additives, dyes, amounts, etc.), this usually self-trims well enough to fall in the acceptable range. :-)

I did try some C3/palm blends unwicked in metro jars to see how the addition of palm affected pouring - I got a lot of wet spot issues although the surfaces were good

If you are talking about blending C3 and pillar style palm wax, I am not surprised the wet spots were worse - pillar style palm wax is designed to shrink and release from the sides of the mold. When mixing in other things as additives, think about the properties of the additive and what you are trying to achieve as well as what else might be affected... If you were trying to improve the appearance of C3, first make sure you have worked with it enough to know the range of melt/ppour/cooling temps that work best for it in your environment. Many many people add NOTHING to C3 to enhance its appearance and obtain a fine looking candle with tops as smooth as a baby's bottom. Before you start adding *other stuff*, be sure you really need the additive and choose the right one and amount. HTH :-)

[RichardLOZ]

Thought I would get some pics up now that my camera battery has finally charged.

Not happy with these candles at all I have to say.

Country Clothesline NG - 6%, C3, CDN 24 in both 12 & 16 oz jars

Coco mango NG - 6%, C3, CDN 22 in both 12 & 16 oz jars.

Both of these oils burn excellent with my original 464 / palm blend and the same wicks and FO%. No other additives in these at all. Notice the slight sooting on the tops of the jars. This was worse however I did wipe between burns. These have all be burnt so far for 44 hours. BTW the wicks are actually centered, just the angle of the photo

The CC "might" catch up in the 16 oz, however I dont think that the coc mango has any chance. Going up to a CDN 24 or CDN 26 is most likely going to give me greater soot issues, even if it does fix the burn.

Oh well back to the drawing board now from here I guess

Richard

Edited March 5, 2012 by RichardLOZ

[bart70]

Regarding mushrooming: In the absense of a photo, whether this is any real concern depends on how we're defining problematic mushrooms. If the *mushrooms* appear as 3 little balls at the tip of the wick that are not more than twice as large as the strand of the wick they are on, this isn't a wrist-slitter.

What I get if I am careful are the very small balls ( 1 or 2) which I don't normally define as problematic - they just pee me off because I am very fussy!

I do get the bigger ones occasionally and usually in the last hour of a 4 hour test burn. These really annoy me!..LOL

Mushrooming happens for many different reasons...

Is the flame hot enough to fully combust the wax & additives (dyes, FOs, etc.)?

Is the wick too large and starving for air?

Would the wick self-trim if left alone?

In relation to your first point - Are you suggesting that in some cases increasing wick size can 'burn off' the components that may not be burning properly and causing the shroom? I tend to wick down when looking to resolve shroom issues - just wondering if I should also be wicking up as an option also?

CDNs and CDs are self-trimming wicks so their posture should curve enough to keep the wick tip in the hottest zone of the flame. If incombustible impurities collect at the wick tip (little balls) they usually fall off or self-trim as the wick burns but when something is wonky, these 'shrooms become larger and larger and larger until they threaten to eat New York City.

The ones I get when things go pear shaped usually take the form of 2 large 'elephant ears' or 'petals' off the end of the wick.

I am assuming that during your testing, you are trimming the wick to 1/4" before beginning a new test session...

Yes...all wicks are trimmed using a 6mm (1/4 inch) trimmer between burns.

If you are talking about blending C3 and pillar style palm wax, I am not surprised the wet spots were worse - pillar style palm wax is designed to shrink and release from the sides of the hold.

I added Palm Container wax - not pillar. It should not have had the shrinking characteristics of the pillar palm. Got lovely tops without needing racks or covering, but horrible wet spots. Oh well....was worth a try I guess!

This is all a great learning curve. Thus far I am not finding the burn characteristics too much different to 464, but it is definitely easier to work with in terms of frosting/wet spots and tops. Will keep playing and see how it all goes.

Bart

[Stella1952]

Not happy with these candles at all I have to say

Richard, I don't blame you! The 22 is too small, plain and simple. The 24 looks a little better, but you may have to go up another size to get a good burn. What I really don't like is how the shoulders of the apothecary are causing the ugly lumpy frosting on the hangup. The country clothesline up top really has a strange burn pattern and the soot on the surface of the candle is disturbing...

The coco mango looks like the oil is separating... is that the case?

Jeeze - no wonder you are disheartened!! Just a thought... did you pour any smaller candles or ones with no dye or FO? Except for the shine on the surface, that doesn't resemble the single wicked C3 candles I have poured! I think you may need to add some USA or something to help tame it! What was the melting and pouring temp on those?

Are you suggesting that in some cases increasing wick size can 'burn off' the components that may not be burning properly and causing the shroom?

It is more common to see shrooms because of overwicking, but what is the culprit is really inefficient combustion, which can happen either way up or down. I think in some extreme cases, it has a lot to do with incombustible impurities in the wax, too much FO, too much dye, etc.

Bart, below is a link to my favorite pics of 'shrooming.

http://www.heinzverhaegh.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/WickSelectionTwo.jpg

The round candle on the right in the first row is getting a little "shroomy." The pink candle on the right in the second row, could eat goats, German shepherds and small children. That must be one of those prized "fragrance balls." :rolleyes2:lipsrseal

Here's another set of gross wick pictures...

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/burn_issues.php

Somewhere a year or two ago, someone started a thread about posting one's worst mushrooms ever - it was truly scary!!

I added Palm Container wax - not pillar. It should not have had the shrinking characteristics of the pillar palm.

While container palm wax doesn't shrink as much, it will still shrink enough to let go sometimes and rattle in the container - that's pretty characteristic of palm wax. One school of thought about mitigating wet spots is to have the entire candle shrink away from the glass slightly (that's where palm wax comes in). But you do want it to be all or nothing... It's always interesting to see how things will work!

Edited March 5, 2012 by Stella1952

[bart70]

Thanks Stella,

What I consider to be my 'bad' shrooms are similar to that of the yellow ball candle on the top right. Frustrates me, especially when I was able to engineer it out of my palm pillars but struggle with the soy.

I am currently doing test of plain C3 in two sizes of candalina jar (small and medium) over 3 wick sizes in each jar type. So far the shrooms have appeared consistently on each burn. I don't know that I should go smaller so might try a larger size and see if the extra flame temp will burn off the deposits. Will wait until the burn gets down past the widest point of the jar and towards the bottom before setting my thoughts in stone.

Am also tesing some baby metro's in 4 wick sizes and found the smallest to be a beautiful burn, the next size up very similar but a little higher ROC so these will be my benchmark sizes when I commence testing with FO. I am currently using CDN wicks only at this stage.

That carbon ball on the pink candle would near qualify for our new Australian Carbon Tax! (Aussies will understand this as it is a hot political issuer here at present). Would make the "fragrance ball" advocates drool at the mouth!

Thanks again for the help Stella. Will keep at it and hopefully crack the code :smiley2:

Bart

[Stella1952]

Another thought regarding the CDNs - the wick wax may make some difference... If you have a choice, perhaps you might test to see if it has a bearing on the burn of the containers you are testing. Are CDs available to you? Some folks like those better than CDNs in certain applications... doesn't hurt to try some, especially if you are having trouble dialing in exactly what you want with CDNs.

I am curious as to whether the C3 Elevance is supplying Down Under is the same as the product here. I noticed on their website that there are three C3 waxes listed... I wonder if there is any difference in them, especially since seeing the difficulty Richard is having with it... I swear - it looks like a different wax to me!!

http://www.elevance.com/resources/data-sheets/

That carbon ball on the pink candle would near qualify for our new Australian Carbon Tax!

ROTFLMAO!! Edited March 6, 2012 by Stella1952

[ChandlerWicks]

I read this about wicks being like a straw: "When the wick is sucking up more wax then it can burn properly, it forms a mushroom. Take the wick size down smaller until the mushrooming stops. It’s accepted that 95 percent of mushrooming problems are corrected by going to a smaller wick."

Don't know if true, but it makes sense to me.

[Stella1952]

I read this about wicks being like a straw: "When the wick is sucking up more wax then it can burn properly, it forms a mushroom. Take the wick size down smaller until the mushrooming stops. It’s accepted that 95 percent of mushrooming problems are corrected by going to a smaller wick."

Don't know if true, but it makes sense to me.

When a wick is burning inefficiently, bad stuff can occur... From what I have read and experienced, the size of the wick is not the whole story. Incomplete combustion, which can occur for several reasons, seems to be the culprit.

From CandleWic...

http://www.candlewic.com/candle-wicks/wick-science.asp

"If there isn’t enough oxygen and too much vapor the flame is going to release the soot and not fully combust causing the wick to bloom (mushroom)."

From Candle Cauldron's Dictionary of Terms...

http://www.candlecauldron.com/dictionary.html

"Carbon mushrooms form at the top of a candle's wick, caused by incomplete combustion. This can be caused by the type of wick, and cooler burning additives like petro, crisco & some scented oils."

Wicks Unlimited says this...

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/burn_issues.php

"Mushroom Capping Mushrooming occurs when there is an overabundance of wax fuel to be combusted, creating a collection of partially reduced molecules which are unable to reach the flame, combine with oxygen and complete the burning process.

As a result, the incompletely combusted material falls back onto the wick, and through molecular attraction, builds up as a carbon cap on the end of the wick.

This excess fuel can be caused by an oversized wick providing more wax to the flame than can be burned; or the wrong type of wick in general."

NGI (manufacturer of EcoSoya) says this...

http://www.ngiwax.com/resources/qa.html

""Mushrooming" is carbon build-up on the wax when a candle is burnt. The main factors contributing to "mushrooming" are the choice of wick (type and size), the fuel (wax) and what the fuel is made of. EcoSoya® soy waxes burn exceptionally clean. Adding scent and dye to the wax "contaminates" the combustion process of a candle. Scent and color are non-fuel sources that can collect in the wick creating the "mushroom" or carbon ball. Changing the wick, scent and dye combination will correct this problem. We recommend only using NON-cored wicks."

[ChandlerWicks]

It all makes sense, I've tried telling my candles this stuff. They're not listening!

[tlc]

my favorite pics of 'shrooming.

http://www.heinzverhaegh.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/WickSelectionTwo.jpg

Here's another set of gross wick pictures...

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/burn_issues.php

Thanks for posting the links Stella. A picture is worth a thousand words isn't it.

[rjdaines]

It all makes sense, I've tried telling my candles this stuff. They're not listening!

Threaten them with a slab of paraffin...

[ChandlerWicks]

I did, they said they don't care!

Threaten them with a slab of paraffin...

[ogicurmt]

if it helps any I use C-3 in my 4" jars but I use the ECO type wicks. I do double wick all my jars and use 2 ECO 6 wicks with most of my fragrances but have to wick way up to ECO 10 with a few of my other fragrances and or color combinations. I also have a couple of people that have requested only one wick so I ended using one ECO 14 and it worked out as well. Point I am trying to make is I have found that ECO wicks seem to work the best in C-3 than any other wick I have tried with this wax.

Edited March 7, 2012 by ogicurmt

[bart70]

Another thought regarding the CDNs - the wick wax may make some difference... If you have a choice, perhaps you might test to see if it has a bearing on the burn of the containers you are testing. Are CDs available to you? Some folks like those better than CDNs in certain applications... doesn't hurt to try some, especially if you are having trouble dialing in exactly what you want with CDNs.

This is the dilemma I have been faced with from the day I started in candles. In Australia, we have CDN, ACS, and HTP wicks available to us. Of the two mainstream candle wholesale suppliers, it is rumoured that one is not selling 'genuine' CDN but a 'copy' they had made for them. I stress this is purely rumour and not confirmed.

The ACS wicks are a wick produced exclusively by one the two main suppliers and is unique to them. They are a cotton core/paper wick that are claimed to be specially made for plant based waxes (soy & palm). I have had some really good results with these in some palm pillars, but unfortunately have found them too inconsistent (2 wicks from the same pack can burn totally different) so have ventured away from them and back to CDN where possible in palm.

Who knows what the wax coating is on any of these - and I guess that if I asked I would either be fobbed of as being too eccentric (candle industry here lacks the maturity that has been reached in other parts of the world), or told what they want me to hear which from experience is fairly common. It may well be the wax they use to coat that is causing my issues.

This leaves us with HTP which I have played with a little with 464 but they did not alter shrooms at all. They may be worth a try in the C3 however and will probably be my next test, along with some ACS (and will have to accept the inconsistencies...)

Would dearly love to play with more wick type but they are simply not available which also frustrates me. Maybe I need to bite the bullet and get a range of other types in from overseas. If anybody knows where CSN, CD, ECO etc can be purchased from in Australia I will love you forever if you can tell me...

am curious as to whether the C3 Elevance is supplying Down Under is the same as the product here. I noticed on their website that there are three C3 waxes listed... I wonder if there is any difference in them, especially since seeing the difficulty Richard is having with it... I swear - it looks like a different wax to me!!

I could only see 2 types listed - one is marked as 'flaked' which lends me to believe that they produce it in block and flake form. Only my interpretation though - might well be different specs. The issues Richard is having seems odd in comparison to what is being seen on your side of the world. I have not ventured to FO yet - I am nervous that I too will start seeing these problems.

Bart

[KoalaGirl]

Hi Bart, NCS has CSN wicks!

Oops...just had a look and all but the tealight wicks are out of stock...sorry!

Edited March 7, 2012 by KoalaGirl
to add an oops

[Stella1952]

I could only see 2 types listed

I should have mentioned it - it's not grouped with the other C1 & C3 stuff... Scroll all the way down, under their feathering palm wax (which I've never seen...) and you'll see:

NatureWax® Products for Export (Heat-treated Pallets) Product Technical Data Sheet Material Safety Data Sheet C-1 Container Wax Flake 13C2020CT_TDS 13C2020CT_MSDS C-3 Container Wax Flake 13C2040CT_TDS 13C2040CT_MSDS

I don't know what a "heat-treated pallet" is...??? All I have ever seen is the pretty white flakes in cases... Have never seen any of the other stuff offered... I think samples of the Elite-300 are available by contacting Elevance. It's reputed to be their answer to NGI's Ecosoya Xcel... Might be worth testing...

I remember that when Elevance first took over from Cargill, there was a really UGLY bad batch that gave some members fits. It didn't look good at any time, however... I think coconut or island girl posted a pic of it melted in the pot that looked like it had been used for fried chicken or something... Supposedly that was an overheated lecithin issue or something and they got it resolved...

Edited March 7, 2012 by Stella1952

[minx]

NCS have the ECO wicks and the CDN wicks as well.

[Tribalvixen]

NCS have been oos on eco wicks since I started making candles in mid 09...