2 fragrance oils giving me dos?

[powderblueboutique]

Well, not me...! It is so weird, I have tried both oils 2 times at the correct ratios, and they both give the soap dos.

You would think this would be a more "common cause" for dos, but all of my oils/fats are fresh, I use distilled water, yadayadayada....Every single other soap I make is just fine with other fragrances (well, hello sweet thang can be a b**ch ).

I hate this, because they are 2 of my absolute favorites: pink sugar, and dreamsicle. I am not using them together, thought I would add.

Is their anything I can do, or should I shop around for another company that has these? I buy mostly from mms.

ahhh, disappointed!

[Kitn]

Are you sure it is DOS? Both those FO's have a high vanilla content and that will turn the soap brown or some variant of it depending on the colourant used.

[powderblueboutique]

Oh yes, I am sure! Starts on the outside (orangy spots) and moves all over the soap. The vanilla does affect the the color, but this is completely aside from that. Nice thought tho! I should have said that, to evade confusion

still so strange. I DID use these oils in hot process years ago, the same thing happened. It did not "click" until today.

HMMMMM. This is a unique issue

Thanks!

[NNK]

Oh yes, I am sure! Starts on the outside (orangy spots) and moves all over the soap. The vanilla does affect the the color, but this is completely aside from that. Nice thought tho! I should have said that, to evade confusion

I have no ideas or solutions, but I was wondering, with Pink Sugar that is very brown, do you mean there is orange discoloration? like some areas are lighter in color (orangy)? I've never seen DOS in a brown bar

[powderblueboutique]

I have no ideas or solutions, but I was wondering, with Pink Sugar that is very brown, do you mean there is orange discoloration? like some areas are lighter in color (orangy)? I've never seen DOS in a brown bar

neither do I! I do not have a picture and wish I did, shoulda coulda woulda.

my soap experience: ok, soap is curing, starting to discolor brown, normal...3 days inish orange blotches on the outside that are soft to the touch, they do not sting during a tongue test or leak fluid. The blotches continue to grow on the bottom of the soap, and now on the inside. The Orange is much brighter and prominent for it to be a discoloration. Note: the orange blotches are circular spots. I hope that I am making sense!

So the orange looks like rust color, in circular blotches, all over soap and is soft to the touch. 4 batches (more if you count hp).

Worst case scenerio, I can make it again (ugh) to see if it happens, that way I would have pictures.

Doozy to make and explain:) I am tired!

Thanks everyone

Kari

Edited February 29, 2012 by powderblueboutique

[NNK]

Gotcha! So it shows up really soon after making... Very interesting.

Maybe something in those FOs does not go well with your recipe? I had good old Patchouli bars go DOS on me once, and I hardly use any DOS prone oils. But it took a while. In your case it is some kind of accelerated oxidation issue. If DOS shows up as fast as bars discolor, I'd think it's FO. It seems like you have two choices, one is to try the same FOs with a different recipe, and another - shop around. Especially for Pink Sugar, pretty much every supplier has it. I don't buy FOs from MMS, although I buy other stuff from them, couple times I threw in FOs just because i was already paying for shipping, and both time was not happy with the results.

[powderblueboutique]

I thought It was strange that it happened so quickly as well. In hp, it is immediate. I really like a lot of their fo's, but these are junk I do use olive oil and sunflower in my recipe. I think my sunflower is around 31% and olive oil is more around 10%. I would have to do my math...it's too early any recommendations for companies based on these percentages?

[chuck_35550]

Wow, I bet your linoleic numbers are through the roof. Do you use high oleic sunflower? You might try reversing those oils (10% sunflower and 31% oo) when using those particular fos. HTH

Steve

[powderblueboutique]

Wow, I bet your linoleic numbers are through the roof. Do you use high oleic sunflower? You might try reversing those oils (10% sunflower and 31% oo) when using those particular fos. HTH

Steve

I should have just done my math this morn, but mamma kari was in a rush! I do not use high linoleic sf, but it does have vitamin e added. it's hains, I believe. Here are my percentages:

Cocoa butter 15.91

coconut 31.82

macadamia 6.82

olive 18.18

sunflower 27.27

The point was to have a whiter bar, yet stable and conditioning lather. It is wonderful on the skin Plus, I love that I can make salt bars with it. But I suppose that since pink sugar is so discoloring, it might not hurt to flip them. But is there anything else that you see in the percentages that would cause the dos in pink sugar and dreamsicle? Thanks so much Steve, I really appreciate it. Kari

edit to add: The recipe I used in hp that this happened to as well, had high amount of olive oil (no sunflower), and this still happened. It was:

olive 52oz

palm 16oz

coconut 14oz

cocoa 6oz

Edited February 29, 2012 by powderblueboutique

[NNK]

I plugged in your numbers into soapcalc, gave me 23 linoleic. so what? i have made bars with linoleic that high, and they never got DOS. I agree with Steve, it would be a good idea to swap olive and sunflower if you want yout bars to last longer in general... but this problem of yours most likely because of FO. especially if you got DOS with the second recipe, that has NOTHING that could trigger it.

By any chance, did your CP batches happen to overheat? That also could cause DOS (i have read it somewhere)

[powderblueboutique]

You are probably right about the fo, nat. So moving on to the recipe, In general, how long would the bars last if I kept the recipe the same? I have only been using this recipe a little over a month.

I didn't gel this particular one, so it shouldn't have overheated.

thanks

New thought: what if I didn't super fat, I am sure over thinking. I have been doing some reading on sunflower....you all got the wheels turning! Millers page says if you didn't super fat, your bars would last forever, assuming it wasn't lye heavy. I have never NOT superfatted, I guess I just never thought about it before.

Edited March 1, 2012 by powderblueboutique

[NNK]

So moving on to the recipe, In general, how long would the bars last if I kept the recipe the same?

New thought: what if I didn't super fat, I am sure over thinking. I have been doing some reading on sunflower....you all got the wheels turning! Millers page says if you didn't super fat, your bars would last forever, assuming it wasn't lye heavy. I have never NOT superfatted, I guess I just never thought about it before.

IF you superfat, and the recipe is high in linoleic, you are risking your bars to turn orange in anywhere between 6 months-2 years (whatever is chelf life of the oil). if you don't superfat, you can end up with grandma's type lye heavy soap. So it would be your choice. If you are sure your bars get used up quickly and you love the feel linoleic acid gives, keep the recipe. It's up to you. In the beginning I was willing to experiment and didn't really care about shelf life. but as you have more and more soap, and your bars start getting DOS, you'd have to re-think it.

As far as not superfatting, you can certainly try that and see how the soap feels.

But if you formulate your recipe with stable oils, and superfat, your bars will last very long as well.

[powderblueboutique]

I think I might try it just for the heck of it, I am a bit of a risk taker regardless, atleast I can say I tried it during my soap making experience

Yes, I will want something that will last, definitely, fairly soon, lets hope. I still love this recipe tho, maybe a friends and family thing!

What about this, nat? I plugged some oils into the calc, I eliminated sunflower replaced it with macadamia, and thought maybe mango butter would be a good choice to replace the macadamia that was at 6ish percent.

mango 3oz

coconut 14

cocoa 7

macadamia 12

olive 8

I have never worked with mango before, but it seems to balance the bar pretty good. Not sure if the oil or butter would be better. this calculates at 40 oleic, I don't if that's too high???? But based on their scale range it falls at 44, so I think it would be ok. Ah, spending more money!

another version:

mango 5

cocoa 7

coconut 14

macadamia 5

olive 13

this one would bring the macadamia and mango into the suggested range under 12.5%. properties are still pretty close as the one above.

Edited March 1, 2012 by powderblueboutique

[NNK]

ah, the wonders of experimenting!

your recipe looks fine, although VERY expensive. I guess you just have to get through this phase

I generally try to keep my cleansing numbers a bit lower, around 18 or so, and see more conditioning. I also think that 40-41 is plenty hard for a bar. 44 costs you "too much".

Suggested numbers in coapcalc are just that, suggested numbers. pure castile soap has cleansing "0", and oleic 69, and it is a good soap (after a long, long cure. lol). High oleic number is good, high stearic is fine, high palm - not so good, some people tolerate it well, some complain if it is higher than 18. High Lauric - a lot of bubbles but drying (but i'm sure there is plenty of info on properties of oils, so i won't go into that)

Have you tried adding castor? It is a great if you need to add some bubbles to the recipe without making it harsh. I add it to every batch, can't formulate without (that's an idea for you since you will be shopping anyway)

[powderblueboutique]

lol, thanks for adding to my shopping list!

Castor one once per pound of oils superfat? right?

oh yes, I know expensive, I did edit up there another version. I wonder if I could up the olive and take away from the a more expensive oil. Ugh, olive oil, here is the reasoning behind the white bar: tatanium dioxide, I want to get away from it for several reasons. My sunflower recipe is super white I just feel the more I up that olive the darker it will get. I can get a lot of my fixed oils local as we have a couple companies here in portland, oregon, they keep my shipping down. On another note, with the high amount of coconut, it might not be affected.

No need to go into the properties, I have a good book, and I geek out. The only thing that I have not come across is the values (like soapcalc uses), like you said above, "palm higher than 18". what does that number mean on the scale? Is it a 0-100 scale? And, what numbers are best to stay under for certain properties for the scale? any reference to this scale, because I couldn't find it. I know it is just a guide, but i can't help myself My book lists the sap % values under each category, and I guess (my husband, lol) could figure these numbers out but, they are also a sliding % based on 1 once.

Well, this will be fun to try out! Thank you for all of your wise information, I think you deserve a medal

Kari

[NNK]

actually, i just have castor at up to 10% of the recipe, add it to the whole pot. it is CP, everything will get burned anyway. with HP, I choose my most expensive oil to do the superfatting.

Do you know there is a thing called High Oleic Sunflower oil? I don't know how they process it, but it has very high oleic number, 89 i think. you'd have to order it online though

I use this calculator to get the values http://www.soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp

i though that's what you used since you mentioned oleic number, and hardness in previous post. ah, i see now, i meant to write "palmitic", not palm. sorry for the confusion, i should be going to bed anyway.

good luck with your next recipe!

[powderblueboutique]

Oh no, I knew what you meant by palm

MMM, I don't think you knew what I meant by my values question. That's ok tho.

Yes, I have seen that the high oliec, but it does turn its properties to be more like olive, nothing wrong with that, unless you like the feel of linoliec.

Too many posts. The oleic was for the revised recipe.

Good night, mee too

[NNK]

lol. i see now what i was missing. it was way past my bedtime .

it is hard to find the book that has all the info. plus things change, soapers constantly discover new information.

i mentioned high oleic sunflower because you wanted a white bar. i can't tell you for sure, i simply forgot, but i think the oil is pretty light in color.

[powderblueboutique]

lol. i see now what i was missing. it was way past my bedtime .

it is hard to find the book that has all the info. plus things change, soapers constantly discover new information.

i mentioned high oleic sunflower because you wanted a white bar. i can't tell you for sure, i simply forgot, but i think the oil is pretty light in color.

Oh, I know, we took the kids to a lodge with an indoor water park this last weekend. I am still working off that tired!

I am going out to shay and company today to get some of the oils. They do not have the high oliec sf, for another time

time to get ready for work, is this week over yet?

Have a great day, thanks a bunch!

[Scented]

Yeah but you need the high oleic. Just adding VE isn't doing any kind of preserving. Non high oleic is bound to be unstable and that's what I think the cause is just from reading this.

[powderblueboutique]

Yeah but you need the high oleic. Just adding VE isn't doing any kind of preserving. Non high oleic is bound to be unstable and that's what I think the cause is just from reading this.

We pondered that scented, but it happened in an entirely different recipe with shelf stable oils. plus it happens so quickly, 3 days in usually with both fo's. I use this recipe with other fo's and it works just fine.

Happy to say that new seasons had the high oleic !

Just got home from shopping, have everything I need for a new recipe, let's hope it doesn't fall afart

thanks for all you input, away I go........