Candle Company Speaks out about Soy!

[Ravens]

Good, interesting post, CaftCandles; thank you!

People seem to forget that most of the cities and farm land here in the U.S. was once forest and was cleared for the same reasons that forest are still being cut down in other countries today (Timber & Agriculture). It’s pretty arrogant of us to condemn others for something that we have already done and had to put laws in place to prevent continued destruction. I do not in any way condone deforestation but it will continue to happen until the laws in other countries are enforced to prevent it and whether or not you, here in the U.S. buy Palm Wax will not have an impact on the Global Palm Oil production. Palm Oil like Soy and other Vegetable Oils are primarily produced for use in food products and lubricants, wax represents a very small percentage of oil consumption. That is the same thought people have about supporting Foreign Oil Companies by buying Paraffin Wax and supporting American Farmers by buying Soy Wax, that’s just absurd! I wonder if the Palm Boycotters know that when they eat movie or microwaveable popcorn that it is cooked with PALM OIL?

The best thing to do is to make your candles using whatever kind of wax you want and stop worrying about remedial things that you have no impact on one way or the other and stop bad mouthing others wax choices to make yours look better.

By definition, Palm Oil is sustainable in fact more so than Soybean Oil. Palm fruit can be harvested twice annually (from the same tree) in tropical climates whereas soybeans must be replanted every year.

I don’t think anyone said Paraffin is sustainable but it is renewable, undeniable!

.

[HorseScentS]

But what about the bees? Our bee population is down by 50%! Just Google "Bee Shortage" to see the devastating effects of the bee shortage on our eco system, here's one article: http://www.beeshortage.com/

Edited January 20, 2012 by HorsescentS

[001]

But what about the bees? Our bee population is down by 50%! Just Google "Bee Shortage" to see the devastating effects of the bee shortage on our eco system, here's one article: http://www.beeshortage.com/

This has to do with disease over our harvesting anything from them

Palm is sustainable on paper Most of the palm oil produced and exported comes from Malaysia home of the orangutan, and the deforestation is pushing them out to the fringe and putting them in tiny patches of land between plantations. If they wonder onto the plantations they are often hacked to death because they are considered a pest. In south America they shoot and kill the parrots that flock the palm plantations to get something to eat.

We did deforest our lands and its not the deforestation because, after all they are re-planting trees, it is the monoculture that is the bad part. Biodiversity in the tropical regions is by far more important than the cooler regions here in the US. We also don't have numbers of site specific animals here in the US. The symbiosis that is exhibited in the tropical regions is insane and with a couple animals/plants going extinct in some areas, it could collapse ecosystems. Tropical forests are just more valuable overall than forests here (which still need to be protected)

Edited January 20, 2012 by 001

[lsbennis]

Ok, lets just agree to disagree, all waxes have their good and bad points, there is not or will there ever be the perfect wax. That is not the point of the original post, I put the original post up to show that trash talking one wax over another in order to sell your product does have affect on individual business. Personally I don't know why anyone who makes soy candles would blast that all over their website anyway, to me it screams desperate but that's just my opinion. :lipsrseal

[HorseScentS]

Ok, lets just agree to disagree, all waxes have their good and bad points, there is not or will there ever be the perfect wax. That is not the point of the original post, I put the original post up to show that trash talking one wax over another in order to sell your product does have affect on individual business. Personally I don't know why anyone who makes soy candles would blast that all over their website anyway, to me it screams desperate but that's just my opinion. :lipsrseal

Yes, you're absolutely right that trash talking one wax over another in order to sell your product does have an effect on individual businesses. And it's ridiculous because all the waxes have their pros and cons and, therefore, are equally good/bad.

I'm not convinced that the bee shortage is due to disease, I don't see how harvesting the wax from their hives can fail to harm their population. So, my point is that even bees wax chandlers need to stop being holier-than-though about their wax.

[001]

Yes, you're absolutely right that trash talking one wax over another in order to sell your product does have an effect on individual businesses. And it's ridiculous because all the waxes have their pros and cons and, therefore, are equally good/bad.

I'm not convinced that the bee shortage is due to disease, I don't see how harvesting the wax from their hives can fail to harm their population. So, my point is that even bees wax chandlers need to stop being holier-than-though about their wax.

The only wax I can say I "trash" talk is palm, but only when it comes up, Mia Bella is something I see a lot of around here and when I am asked about the difference in soy/palm I will talk about the deforestation of the rainforest for palm production and the effect it has on the local wildlife.

As for bees, bee populations are generally counted as a hive, commercial bee producers (the kind that ship hives to farms) are where most of the wax comes from. Their money comes from three primary sources, the first is obviously honey, the second is renting them out to farms. They truck in hundreds of hives and place them in the center of people's farms, they are paid for this. The last source of income is wax, and when they harvest the honey they are left with empty cells made of wax. When they clean the wood frames off to place back into the hive they get the wax. Each bee keeper keeps enough honey in the colony to keep them alive, after all they are making money off of the products these little guys produce.

So far the best hypothesis out there is a bacteria or fungi that are working against the bees. There is also (obviously) more pesticides in the world, and with the tremendous expansion of self pollinating crops, 500 acres without a single bug on it due to pesticides is fairly common.

I read an article about a beeless world a few months ago and they did calculations that would equate their work to human work and it would increase our non-grain food crops by 40% but they also cited biodome 2 and that truly was a world without bees, they lived and grew food for 2 years without bees without human pollination and they found that other insects took their place (namely roaches) Fascinating though, kinda gross for sure.... roaches all over the food.

Edited January 20, 2012 by 001

[Beth]

The only wax I can say I "trash" talk is palm, but only when it comes up, Mia Bella is something I see a lot of around here and when I am asked about the difference in soy/palm I will talk about the deforestation of the rainforest for palm production and the effect it has on the local wildlife.

As for bees, bee populations are generally counted as a hive, commercial bee producers (the kind that ship hives to farms) are where most of the wax comes from. Their money comes from three primary sources, the first is obviously honey, the second is renting them out to farms. They truck in hundreds of hives and place them in the center of people's farms, they are paid for this. The last source of income is wax, and when they harvest the honey they are left with empty cells made of wax. When they clean the wood frames off to place back into the hive they get the wax. Each bee keeper keeps enough honey in the colony to keep them alive, after all they are making money off of the products these little guys produce.

So far the best hypothesis out there is a bacteria or fungi that are working against the bees. There is also (obviously) more pesticides in the world, and with the tremendous expansion of self pollinating crops, 500 acres without a single bug on it due to pesticides is fairly common.

I read an article about a beeless world a few months ago and they did calculations that would equate their work to human work and it would increase our non-grain food crops by 40% but they also cited biodome 2 and that truly was a world without bees, they lived and grew food for 2 years without bees without human pollination and they found that other insects took their place (namely roaches) Fascinating though, kinda gross for sure.... roaches all over the food.

ok, did you really have to do that?? lol..... gonna go hurl now......... please, let's leave the little bees alone, then!!

[Whisper Girl]

We should not be "trash talking" any wax.

[ksranch]

We should not be "trash talking" any wax.

Exactly - to each his own - let it go!

[HorseScentS]

The only wax I can say I "trash" talk is palm, but only when it comes up, Mia Bella is something I see a lot of around here and when I am asked about the difference in soy/palm I will talk about the deforestation of the rainforest for palm production and the effect it has on the local wildlife.

As for bees, bee populations are generally counted as a hive, commercial bee producers (the kind that ship hives to farms) are where most of the wax comes from. Their money comes from three primary sources, the first is obviously honey, the second is renting them out to farms. They truck in hundreds of hives and place them in the center of people's farms, they are paid for this. The last source of income is wax, and when they harvest the honey they are left with empty cells made of wax. When they clean the wood frames off to place back into the hive they get the wax. Each bee keeper keeps enough honey in the colony to keep them alive, after all they are making money off of the products these little guys produce.

So far the best hypothesis out there is a bacteria or fungi that are working against the bees. There is also (obviously) more pesticides in the world, and with the tremendous expansion of self pollinating crops, 500 acres without a single bug on it due to pesticides is fairly common.

I read an article about a beeless world a few months ago and they did calculations that would equate their work to human work and it would increase our non-grain food crops by 40% but they also cited biodome 2 and that truly was a world without bees, they lived and grew food for 2 years without bees without human pollination and they found that other insects took their place (namely roaches) Fascinating though, kinda gross for sure.... roaches all over the food.

https://www.google.com/search?q=waves+killing+bees%3F&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a Before a candle consumer gets fanatical about wax, they should stop using cell phones, radio, TV, WIFI, etc, which are believed to be killing bees.

Edited January 20, 2012 by HorsescentS

[CaftCandles]

Bees are very intelligent creatures much like we used to be. They spend all spring and summer collecting pollen and nectar from flowers to make honey to consume while doing so and to stock pile for the winter. Because the severity and duration of winter is never certain they make much more Honey than they need. The Bee Keepers (Farmers) know how much honey bees consume during the winter and leave them enough to survive and the rest is harvested and sold as Honey, Royal Jelly and Beeswax. No harm comes to bees while harvesting the honey and they exhibit no bereavement from losing their stock piles. Beeswax is, besides your own ear wax, one of the few if not the only wax that would be hard to speak poorly of.

Bees are declining for several reasons, the largest being our own fault. Farmers want a pest free (insect and weeds) crop and use a lot of chemical pesticides which harm bees as well. Worldwide we lost interest in Beekeeping also contributing to the decline and what was believed to be a disease but now scientist think they found the actual culprit. Here is a link to an article about that if you’re bored or interested in that topic. http://www.oneidadispatch.com/articles/2012/01/05/news/doc4f04fab83bb16023465092.txt

The Department of Agriculture in my area has been offering for several years to anyone that wishes to become a Beekeeper a great deal of incentives and assistance to do so. I think they will practically set you up and train you for free. Below is an excerpt from an article I recently read, sad.

“Ironically, the farms that need bees the most are a big part of problem. Giant weed-free farms that destroy habitat and use a lot of pesticides are the worst offenders”

Now for Palm Wax!

From Wikipedia

Palm oil, produced fromthe oil palm,is a basic source of income for many farmers in South East Asia, Central and West Africa, and Central America. Itis locally used as cooking oil, exported for use in many commercial food andpersonal care products and is converted into biofuel. It produces up to 10times more oil per unit area as soybeans, rapeseed or sunflowers. Oil palms produce 38% of vegetable oil output on5% of the world’s vegetable-oil farmland.

Sounds sustainable to me, in reality! Palm Oil is produced in many countries and done responsibly, why should the industry take a bad rap for the few that are doing wrong? Yes, Palm Oil is mostly produced in Indonesia and Malaysia and is where the concern over deforestation is focused but like with Soy Wax coming from ONLY “American Farmers”, can you honestly say that the wax sold at your local supplier is coming from there? Do you honestly believe that by using or not using 10 to 20 pounds of Palm Wax a week or a month is threatening the orangutans? You, me or anyone else on this forum, even if all of the members are all included as a whole DO NOT HAVE a positive or negative impact on the production of Palm Oil or the deforestation to produce it. I personally have traveled all around South America and have been in and flown over (by Helicopter) the Amazon Rain Forest for the past 18 years and I have seen some deforestation and have seen thousands of parrots that you speak of and I can say this; deforestation in the Amazon has been highly over sold and over dramatized and even if parrots are killed in Oil Palm Plantations it would represent an extreamly small percentage of the overall population and would be shadowed by the amount of the ones exported to be sold as pets.

Well enough about that! I agree with the OP, use whatever wax you want and STOP bad mouthing everyone else’s choices. Stop being so infantile too think that because you use or don’t use a particular kind of wax that you are contributing too or fighting against any global issues. Can’t we all just make candles and Be Happy?

[HorseScentS]

Bees are very intelligent creatures much like we used to be. They spend all spring and summer collecting pollen and nectar from flowers to make honey to consume while doing so and to stock pile for the winter. Because the severity and duration of winter is never certain they make much more Honey than they need. The Bee Keepers (Farmers) know how much honey bees consume during the winter and leave them enough to survive and the rest is harvested and sold as Honey, Royal Jelly and Beeswax. No harm comes to bees while harvesting the honey and they exhibit no bereavement from losing their stock piles. Beeswax is, besides your own ear wax, one of the few if not the only wax that would be hard to speak poorly of.

Actually, I just read about several methods the bee keepers use to get the bees away from the hive so they can harvest the honey and wax, and one of those methods is to use a leaf blower or a bee blower, which tears the bees in half, at least some of them.

[lauramw71]

My dad is a beekeeper. The biggest problem he has with his bees are other insects and birds. He refuses to use any type of pesticide on his bees, and prides himself on his 100% natural honey. (Bonus of having it in the family? I currently have 2 gallons of that lovely stuff in my cupboard, and a bucket of wax I haven't had the nerve to clean yet. lol) Anyways, there are many factors that are affecting his bees. Just this past summer he lost two hives and had to "restock" from his "bee pusher".

I guess I just don't understand why these types of posts come up and keep going. Everyone has their own opinion on what is the best. What one person percieves is the best won't be the same as the other person. Yes it's annoying, irritating, and maddening to hear what you consider the best to get bashed, and usually based on pure opinion. But, when you read these and get upset, you are the only one getting upset. Is the person that wrote that upset? Nope.. they are happily living their lives in their lil box, while you are steaming. The best thing you can do is read these, Yes READ them. That way when someone approaches you regarding this information, you are already informed. You know what to say to them regarding any misinformation they have received. You are than able to give them the "real deal" and sway their opinion. There is no reason to bash any type of wax anyo9ne has chosen. You know the old saying.. "opinions are like A##holes.. everyone has one".... Read it, get a laugh from it, arm yourself with opposing facts, and call it a day...

Just my own two cents worth...

[HorseScentS]

My dad is a beekeeper. The biggest problem he has with his bees are other insects and birds. He refuses to use any type of pesticide on his bees, and prides himself on his 100% natural honey. (Bonus of having it in the family? I currently have 2 gallons of that lovely stuff in my cupboard, and a bucket of wax I haven't had the nerve to clean yet. lol) Anyways, there are many factors that are affecting his bees. Just this past summer he lost two hives and had to "restock" from his "bee pusher".

I guess I just don't understand why these types of posts come up and keep going. Everyone has their own opinion on what is the best. What one person percieves is the best won't be the same as the other person. Yes it's annoying, irritating, and maddening to hear what you consider the best to get bashed, and usually based on pure opinion. But, when you read these and get upset, you are the only one getting upset. Is the person that wrote that upset? Nope.. they are happily living their lives in their lil box, while you are steaming. The best thing you can do is read these, Yes READ them. That way when someone approaches you regarding this information, you are already informed. You know what to say to them regarding any misinformation they have received. You are than able to give them the "real deal" and sway their opinion. There is no reason to bash any type of wax anyo9ne has chosen. You know the old saying.. "opinions are like A##holes.. everyone has one".... Read it, get a laugh from it, arm yourself with opposing facts, and call it a day...

Just my own two cents worth...

I'm not upset about anybody preferring one wax over another wax, I'm upset about one candle maker bashing another candle maker's chosen wax in order to promote their own product, because it really does hurt others in business, it's unethical, and the FTC says it's against the law, too. I mean, if I wanted to be an idiot I could bash bee wax due to bee cruelty from the use of bee blowers. lol

So, what does your dad think is causing the bee shortage?

Edited January 21, 2012 by HorsescentS

[001]

You, me or anyone else on this forum, even if all of the members are all included as a whole DO NOT HAVE a positive or negative impact on the production of Palm Oil or the deforestation to produce it.

Uh... yes we do. If nobody bought it nobody would produce it. Its called capitalism. We vote with our dollars and if we stay away from palm products there would be no need to produce them.... I haven't had a kit kat or skippy "natural" peanut butter in years because they have palm oil in it. Think of elections, lead wicks.... or avocado colored bathroom tiles.

Edited January 22, 2012 by 001

[CaftCandles]

You, me or anyone else on this forum, even if all of the members are all included as a whole DO NOT HAVE a positive or negative impact on the production of Palm Oil or the deforestation to produce it.

Uh... yes we do. If nobody bought it nobody would produce it. Its called capitalism. We vote with our dollars and if we stay away from palm products there would be no need to produce them.... I haven't had a kit kat or skippy "natural" peanut butter in years because they have palm oil in it. Think of elections, lead wicks.... or avocado colored bathroom tiles.

I think you misunderstood my point. Yes, if everyone stopped using it then it would ultimately go away as would anything. My point was simply that Palm Oil is primarily produced like Soybean oil for food additives, oils, lubricants, if you, me or us as candle makers stopped using it wouldn’t go away therefore you, me or we have no impact on the production.

There are things that many people in this country think they can affect on a global level by supporting or disapproving of something in other countries. People in Third World Countries do not have the luxuries that you and I have and I’m not referring to fancy homes, cars or yachts, I’m referring to electricity, medicine or steady income. If the Palm Oil or any other industry could be stopped by any means they would just find another crop or reason to cut down the Rain Forest. They like us have to earn an income but they unlike us do not have the options that you and I take for granted. If you lost your income today you have at your disposal many government programs too at least maintain some of the things you own and keep food on your table, if you had to you would be able to retrain yourself and find another source of income, they do not. I remember back in the 70’s or 80’s, there was a lot of talk and protest about sweat shops in Third World Countries, Cathy Lee Gifford was att he center of all that due to her clothing line being manufactured in countries that used child labor and because I was still young I really didn’t understand much about the problem. Since I’ve gotten older and started traveling I now understand the what’s, how’s and whys. Although I am not a fan of child labor, I’ve seen in some countries that if it wasn’t for them working in sweat shops they would have had to resort to more horrendous methods to aid in the survival of their families. We thought back then that be shutting down the sweat shops that the children would return to school to get an education and ultimately benefit them, their families and their countries, fast forward to today and the reality is very different. They did not return to school and the only other options for them were becoming a thief, working for a drug lord or in prostitution. I recently returned from a country in Central America where you could find any of those on any street corner, crime was amongst the highest in the world and I had to have an armed guard with an armored vehicle at all times. We have to be very careful of how we approach things like stopping industries in other countries, the long term effects are sometimes hard to live with. I am not saying that I do not support it; we just need to be very smart on how and when we do it.

001, I commend you for your enthusiastic and conservative nature but unfortunately the world is not as simple as not eating a Kit Kat orSkippy Peanut Butter as an attempt to stop deforestation. It takes world leaders to agree, commit to providing resources for enforcement and workers have to be educatedon how to be conservationist and teach them other methods of earning money to make the changes that you desire. I personally have seen the suffering and slaughtering in some of these countries, of people of all ages and I hope that you will never have to experience the same, but sometimes we have to weigh the cost, and many times the price that others pays for our crusades are very high. The candle industry just does not have the influence on the Palm Oil or Soybean Oil industries to make a difference either way.

My sincere apologies to the OP for getting off topic.

[001]

15 years ago the production of palm oil came from small plantations in the native range. Today we're seeing it in central and south America. If we (and we ARE the number one consumer market) decides that we're not going to use unsustainable palm the whole world would take notice.

IF they did not produce palm oil the only thing that would happen is large companies would not displace any local citizens. In the whole palm industry there are only around 500 major players, and a lot of them have exclusive contracts with Cargill. We're not talking about 10 acre plots with a couple hundred trees. These plantations are 1,500-2,000 acres or more. Its also not uncommon to use illegal workers because they are cheaper.

I get the whole sweat shop argument and there are a lot of places that would love to have a few sweat shops come to town (Juarez for one) but we need to stop supporting any industry that is detrimental to things we're for. Its that simple... the capitalistic philosophy says that when we stop doing x y opens up and creates an opportunity. Palm is not something I can support, and I don't. I choose Y, which is sort of anything else. (including LUSH palm free soaps)

[lauramw71]

So, what does your dad think is causing the bee shortage?

He has NO idea but it's driving him NUTS since he had to replace alot of his. He is VERY small scale, backyard, honey to family, wax to me (I REALLY need to figure out how to clean this wax lol) I think his main problems were the birds and bugs, but I don't think those were enough to kill off 2 of his, I don't know hwat you call a herd of bees lol. I know he will never spray his, and is prepared to have to deal with some kills from the bugs. But on a larger scale.. dunno. The guy he gets his bees from also supplies the local orchards here in town and they lost almost all of theirs last year. It's really a bad thing because bees contribute sooo much to everything.

[HorseScentS]

He has NO idea but it's driving him NUTS since he had to replace alot of his. He is VERY small scale, backyard, honey to family, wax to me (I REALLY need to figure out how to clean this wax lol) I think his main problems were the birds and bugs, but I don't think those were enough to kill off 2 of his, I don't know hwat you call a herd of bees lol. I know he will never spray his, and is prepared to have to deal with some kills from the bugs. But on a larger scale.. dunno. The guy he gets his bees from also supplies the local orchards here in town and they lost almost all of theirs last year. It's really a bad thing because bees contribute sooo much to everything.

Wow! This is absolutely horrible! I don't believe it's disease, I think it's something else...something NWO.

Signed,

The Conspiracy Theorist

[ChandlerWicks]

Ok I Spy, how much coffee have you had this morning? LOL!

Wow! This is absolutely horrible! I don't believe it's disease, I think it's something else...something NWO.

Signed,

The Conspiracy Theorist

[Beth]

My dad is a beekeeper. ....... Just this past summer he lost two hives and had to "restock" from his "bee pusher".

now that made me laugh..

[HorseScentS]

Ok I Spy, how much coffee have you had this morning? LOL!

It's not coffee, Dude, it's 2 hits of OxyElite Pro! lol I've lost 10 lbs on it since January 1st.

[ChandlerWicks]

I'll be looking that up!

[HorseScentS]

I'll be looking that up!

Yes, it's amazing! I had gotten to the point where I thought my metabolism was not capable of losing weight even when I would swim laps for 1 hour each day, or I lost soooo slowly and plateaued all the time. But with OxyElite Pro, I'm not even counting calories or carbs, I just stick to lean meat, fish, eggs, Greek yogurt, olive oil or Smart Balance margarine, nuts, a little cheese, fruits, vegies, and complex carbs like legumes, whole wheat, brown rice, rice cakes...but no sugar, juice, or refined carbs like white flour or white rice, and I eat sweet potatoes with Splenda brown sugar, but avoid white potatoes. I can't believe it's working! I swim every other day. It gives me good energy without making me feel jittery. There are many reviews of it on YouTube. If you buy it from GNC, the lying sales trash will try to switch you to a more expensive weight loss pack so they can earn a higher commission, so don't believe them, just by the OxyElite Pro.

[ChrisR]

Laura the best way to clean your beeswax is to get a big pot of boiling water, put the beeswax in two layers of old pantyhose legs, drop in in the pot till all the beeswax melts out of the pantyhose. Dispose of the pantyhose and let the water cool down. The beeswax will harden back up when the water cools so you can just lift it out and dry it. You may need to do it a couple times, but I've found if I use the two layers of pantyhose, once is usually good enough to get 99 to 100% of the bee parts strained out with the least amount of mess. Have fun!!