A New Thread About ASTM Certified Candle Glass

[HorseScentS]

In the Fragrance Discussion Forum, there's a thread: "Update On Taylored Concepts," about the fact that Taylored closed down and their FOs were bought by AAA Candle Suppy. We digressed into a discussion about all the neat glass containers that AAA has, and the fact that some of them are not ASTM Certified candle glass, as far as we can tell without having called AAA to ask them. (Like the cute Libbey margarita glasses with the green cactus stems, perfect for making candles with the Cactus Lime Cooler FO from Wild-Fire, and other summer FOs, like Margarita. Dollar Tree has them too.)

It's an interesting discussion, but the moderator rightfully asked that we refrain from discussing glassware in the Fragrance forum, and suggested that we start a new thread. :laugh2:So, here it is.

I hope everyone who weighed in on the ASTM certified candle glass issue will copy and paste their informative comments into this thread, unless the moderator can do it for us. TIA

Edited December 29, 2011 by HorsescentS

[jeanie353]

After this came up in discussion, I went around the net from supplier to supplier to see which states they have ASTM Certified. I'm sure I missed many but in the ones I did find, the only one I saw that outward said their glassware was certified was CS. Another said they were candle safe but stopped short of using the certification wording.

It may be a situation where we would have to call many suppliers to ask. The Candlemakers Store was contacted and they said theirs were not ASTM Certified. I do use their glassware and have for a couple years without issue. They have gone through power burns, tests and re-tests many, many times without any failures.

Am not recommending a non-certified type glassware. Just commenting on my own experience with them.

With that said, I would like to have my glassware ASTM Certified when I do begin re-selling to the public.

Edited December 29, 2011 by jeanie353

[Beth]

This was the reply I got from CMS:

"Well, we are equally confused. All we can tell you is that the glassware

that we sell and have been selling for over 15 years is NOT ASTM certified

and that our manufacturers are telling us that it is not a requirement and

therefore they do not have it certified. It is totally logical that there

may be ASTM certifications available, but if it is not a regulatory

requirement, then we can understand where manufacturers may not elect to get

those certifications, as they are usually quite costly."

[robertgibbens]

ASTM is not the end all be all in certification. How many of you even know what astm is? Too many blindly follow things they don't understand too often. Astm has its uses. As a professional engineer, astm governs much of what I do testing wise. But it also specifies procedures that are unnecessary and or are overkill. Fortunately my license allows me to use my judgement and not follow blindly. I recommend more of our do the same.

[Beth]

ASTM is not the end all be all in certification. How many of you even know what astm is? Too many blindly follow things they don't understand too often. Astm has its uses. As a professional engineer, astm governs much of what I do testing wise. But it also specifies procedures that are unnecessary and or are overkill. Fortunately my license allows me to use my judgement and not follow blindly. I recommend more of our do the same.

Then maybe, in a more diplomatic fashion, you should explain to all of us what exactly ASTM is/does? So that we all don't follow blindly such silly notions.........

[Vicky_CO]

ASTM is not the end all be all in certification. How many of you even know what astm is? Too many blindly follow things they don't understand too often. Astm has its uses. As a professional engineer, astm governs much of what I do testing wise. But it also specifies procedures that are unnecessary and or are overkill. Fortunately my license allows me to use my judgement and not follow blindly. I recommend more of our do the same.

Thank you Thank you Thank you. ASTM is not the be all to end all and I do know what ASTM is. I use to be a certified industrial Xray tech and my DH is a certified welding inspector I have lived and breath ASTM at times and yes they go for overkill more times then not. I did not have the freedom you have but my DH does. A little common sense goes a long way.

[Beth]

Joint Commission is also voluntary, but would you go to a non-JCAHO certified hospital? & they are every bit as nit-picky as the ASTM probably is. It's one of those things that if something ever goes wrong, will look good in your favor.

[CareBear]

ASTM is (was - the name is obsolete) American Society for Testing and Materials. It develops standardized test methods and product standards for about everything you can think of. I am a member of ASTM, actually, and am working with the group in my area to develop a standard test method to measure the efficacy of deodorizing air care products.

The standards developed by ASTM are voluntary - they are not mandatory. A company's internal requirements may well be higher than the standards require (or be lower).

In my notes I have this quote - tho I don't recall from where - "Each standard’s requirements are specific to the individual product. The testing requirements reflect “real world” injuries and are intended to address typical use as well as reasonably foreseeable abuse of the product(s)."

This might be interesting: http://www.astm.org/SNEWS/MARCH_2003/becker_mar03.html

If you wish, you can buy the standards - but they ain't cheap.

http://www.candles.org/industry.html

Edited January 8, 2012 by CareBear

[robertgibbens]

The problem with ASTM is their recommendations, once made, are required by many agencies to be used so in fact it is not always "voluntary" as you say. In my field, geotechnical engineering, ASTM lays out the ways something like a field investigation should be performed. Unfortunately every investigation is different with some requiring more or less scope than the last. It is impossible to account for all details so ASTM overdoes their recommendations. I imagine this is a normal part of how they operate...

[SliverOfWax]

ASTM is not the end all be all in certification. How many of you even know what astm is? Too many blindly follow things they don't understand too often. Astm has its uses. As a professional engineer, astm governs much of what I do testing wise. But it also specifies procedures that are unnecessary and or are overkill. Fortunately my license allows me to use my judgement and not follow blindly. I recommend more of our do the same.

lol. Or to put it in a way everyone understands, don't get your panties in a twist over much ado about nothing.

Love it!

[CareBear]

I imagine this is a normal part of how they operate...

it's the normal part of every set of rules and regulations that is intended to apply to a range of products or situations. our legal system, for example... it's not a "flaw" that is limited to ASTM.

[spark-me-up]

I think everyone would like to be using certified glass, but the truth is, at this point in time, that type of glass is limited or hard to come by. So... we can only do what we can & those of us who are responsible DO! =)

Test, re test... & test again, & then.... re test!!!!!

I have often wondered, when glass IS certified "Candle Safe", what exactly that title entails. See, we don't even know what tesing measures are taken here either! (or at least I don't & have never been able to ascertain many facts).

[HorseScentS]

This article has more info about ASTM certified candle glass, and the kinds of testing the glass containers must pass: http://www.eca-candles.com/pdf/WorldCandleCongress/ASTM%20Standards%20and%20the%20Candle%20Industry%20-%20Becker%20Moss.pdf

[Stella1952]

This article has more info about ASTM certified candle glass, and the kinds of testing the glass containers must pass: http://www.eca-candles.com/pdf/World...ker%20Moss.pdf

GREAT DISCUSSION of ALL the ASTM standards for our industry!! All candlemakers who do not already have a copy of this pdf should download it, READ it and keep it handy for reference. It give a keen insight into the kinds and manner of testing needed to comply with due diligence.

From page 5...

ARE THE STANDARDS MANDATORY?

• ALL STANDARDS ARE VOLUNTARY AT THIS TIME

– THERE IS A PETITION (submitted by NASFM) TO THE CPSC TO MAKE THE

STANDARDS MANDATORY

• WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A VOLUNTARY STANDARD?

– VOLUNTARY MEANS IT IS UP TO YOU TO FOLLOW THE STANDARDS OR

NOT, HOWEVER

– IF ONE OF YOUR CANDLES FAILS AND CAUSES PROPERTY DAMAGE OR INJURY, THE LAWYERS WILL CITE THESE STANDARDS AS THOUGH THEY ARE MANDATORY,

THEREFORE IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT YOU BECOME FAMILIAR WITH AND FOLLOW THE REQUIREMENTS OF THESE STANDARDS

Page 9-10 deal with warning labels for votives and tealights - a separate classification from container candles.

Page 11 starts requirements for glassware - thermal shock resistance.*

Page 12 deals with the polariscope requirements for examining the glassware after annealing for invisible stress within the glass structure.

Page 22 starts requirements for fire safety. The succeeding pages have some dramatic photos of what constitutes failures.

Thanks for posting this link again! :smiley2:

Edited March 7, 2012 by Stella1952

[Paul]

Personally my glassware comes out of the sanitizing wash in the dishwasher hotter than I like when my candles are burning. They get rattled around in there fairly well. I think most glassware is going to have to put up with a lot more in its life than being a simple one time use candle. Even something like the margarita glass will need to be engineered and made to withstand the bar environment, (washed, scrubbed and slammed on the bar multiple times) to justify the cost to the bar owner. I care more about buying from a reputable well known manufacturer than I care about ASTM glassware. Just my two-cents.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Paul

[Paul]

This article has more info about ASTM certified candle glass, and the kinds of testing the glass containers must pass: http://www.eca-candles.com/pdf/WorldCandleCongress/ASTM%20Standards%20and%20the%20Candle%20Industry%20-%20Becker%20Moss.pdf

Awesome link - Thank you. It sounds like I could take my hot glassware out of the dishwasher and put it in a water bath 90º cooler for 30 seconds. If it didn't shatter at that point, the glass should be deemed good for thermal shock resistance. (page 11)

Edited March 7, 2012 by Paul

[chuck_35550]

The majority of our glassware is made in China and would not be considered 1sts by any stretch of the imagination. I inspect my flint glass jars and see plenty of imperfections and if I had my druthers I'd rather have seamless glassware but then it would cost more than the whole candle.

Steve

[jeanie353]

This article has more info about ASTM certified candle glass, and the kinds of testing the glass containers must pass: http://www.eca-candles.com/pdf/WorldCandleCongress/ASTM%20Standards%20and%20the%20Candle%20Industry%20-%20Becker%20Moss.pdf

Horsescents...thank you for providing the link.

The owner of Slatkin uses the thermal shock method to determine if the glassware is safe.