Confused

[Bella Rose]

I just think Willow is upset with me because of an earlier thread. I had disagreed with their comment that one needs to add paraffin to make a perfect soy candle. *Sigh*!

[Stella1952]

I would put a CD8 to start in a 8oz.

You might not do that in an 8 oz. WIDEMOUTH mason... it's a 3 incher, same as the taller 16 oz. widemouth mason. I use CDN 14s in them. Without knowing the actual dimension, it's impossible to say what wick would be a good place to start...

Crazzie, EricofAZ gave you some good advice about supplying us with plenty of accurate information when posting a question... The more information we have, the more accurate our responses can be.

To the original OP: Instead of switching your craft, how about you switch to paraffin!

If you have nothing of value to contribute to assist the OP with making better candles other than to tell them to give up or switch, why participate in the thread? This is a craft that requires patience, perseverance and experience because of all the different variables involved. If all the members of this forum had the same response to people posting questions, the reading here would be pretty thin...

in the past 3 months, perfected a pure soy container with manyyyyyy many scents

Sorry, but I don't believe one can "perfect" soy container candles in 3 months. Change of seasons, change of FO and wax formulas, etc. often humble the most confident newbies. It takes at least a couple of YEARS of consistent success with soy candles to understand what a rash statement you have made. I'm glad your efforts are successful thus far, but you are still in the experimental stage of candle making.

I have totally given up on trying to make a heavy hot throw soy candle.

Sorry you've given up, but please understand that your lack of success does not mean that your experience should discourage others. As others will attest, a well-crafted soy candle can all but run someone out of the room with its hot throw. I hope you'll keep on trying 'cause something about your candle system isn't working.

[Bella Rose]

I appreciate your comments, Stella and you are almost 100% right!

Where I live, we really don't have seasons....also - it's a very slight change in my formula and hardening process to adjust to any temperature/humidity change (humidity is not a problem here, either.). Yes, I've done my homework and I do burn my testers all the way down. So I'd have to disagree with you, and reassure you that I have perfected my soy container candle.

Let me tell you, my research and playing with candles came YEARS before I poured my first candle.

I still think if one is $2k in the hole with a soy candle, and still not achieving HT, maybe it's not for them.

[crazzie]

Oh well, Bella Rose you have to keep on practicing til you get it right! I dont think its your problem - you have your perfected candle recipe that other forum people helped YOU with!

Get a life!

[soy327]

You might not do that in an 8 oz. WIDEMOUTH mason... it's a 3 incher, same as the taller 16 oz. widemouth mason. I use CDN 14s in them. Without knowing the actual dimension, it's impossible to say what wick would be a good place to start...

Stella,

Wow, I don't have any clue what 8oz WIDEMOUTH mason looks like. There really wasn't a very good description of the jar. I assumed it was like the little 8oz masons I have here. This is what I was thinking of course minus the jam.

[crazzie]

I've been using the little mason jar that says mason on them.

[deb426]

Okay, that is different than my 8 ounce jj which is what I had in mind. I still think you might try an Eco 8 or 10 to see how it goes. Also, how much FO per pound are you putting in?

[soy327]

:laugh2::laugh2:I think we all had it wrong Crazzie. I use a cd10 or cd12 in that. this is a good reason to state what the jar size is and a good reason for me not to open my mouth until I know for sure. I call that a square mason.:laugh2:Glad we got that straight.

[PAgirl89]

In those type mason jars I use ECO 10 or CD 10. Both wicks work very well for me with 464 wax.

[Lorelei]

I use GB 415 and use CD 10 or 12 depending on the FO in that jar.

I think you can use the same wick in the jar with the 464 if you make the following adjustments:

Heat wax to 180-185 degrees

Pour at 135 degrees.

Try 180 first then cure for a couple of days then try 185

You haven't told us what FO and manufacturer you are using so that would help a whole lot. I'm sorry if you did say this but this thread was hijacked by ego so maybe I missed it as I passed over that nonsense.

Let us know what FO you are using and we might have a different suggestion.

There are still other things you can do, however, lets try to systematically work with what you have right now.

Hope this might help!

[pleasureridgecandles]

From an earlier post these are the scents and supplier(s) she used.

I didn't see a post with how much FO per lb was used before all the back and forth began... so she may have mentioned it in a later post that I missed.

Clothesline from BCN

Caramel Sensation and Hot Cocoa (I'm assuming also from BCN)

Sorry Crazzie I can't offer any advice as I don't use those jars, those scents or those wicks. And I can't recall the wax you were using. Hope you get it all figured out. There's lots of people here that can help... good luck!!

ETA - Re-read your post to see what wax you were using. I no longer use that wax but when I did I had great results with the RRD wicks. However, I did not use the mason style jars so that may be a mute point.

Edited March 25, 2011 by pleasureridgecandles

[IwantItgreen]

In those type mason jars I use ECO 10 or CD 10. Both wicks work very well for me with 464 wax.

There is quite a difference in size between the ECO 10 and the CD 10. ECO 10 is a larger wick than the CD 10.

ECO 10

ROC .27 Flame Ht. 2.2 Pool Diam. 2.8

CD 10

ROC 0.23 Flame Ht.1.94 Pool Diam. 1.93

Edited March 25, 2011 by IwantItgreen

[PAgirl89]

There is quite a difference in size between the ECO 10 and the CD 10. ECO 10 is a larger wick than the CD 10.

ECO 10

ROC .27 Flame Ht. 2.2 Pool Diam. 2.8

CD 10

ROC 0.23 Flame Ht.1.94 Pool Diam. 1.93

The ECO 10's are suggested by the CS wick guide, which is where I buy my wicks. The CD wicks I used for testers to see if there may be another kind of wick that comes close to the performance results I was getting with the ECO wick. I tried the CD 8 wick, which didn't give me the results I wanted, so I wicked up to CD 10.

Edited March 25, 2011 by PAgirl89

[crazzie]

I used 1 ounce to 1 lbs. pounds of wax

Ok so I have a bag of 464 from Peaks and Candle Science

Wicks I have

ECO 8 Coreless- Bittercreek

EXO 14 Candlescience

ECO 10 -Bittercreek

I previously used the 14 and 10 on testing.

This time for testing I will use the

464 1lbs or should I order a bag of 415?

ECO 8

and 1ounce of frangrance

I do have some coconut oil should I use some of that?

I have some scents from Peaks of Rose Bouquet and Cappuccino

Hazelnut.

Or I have from Candle Science

Sex on the Beach and Blood Orange

Thanks everyone for your help.

Edited March 25, 2011 by crazzie

[Stella1952]

Wow, I don't have any clue what 8oz WIDEMOUTH mason looks like... I assumed it was like the little 8oz masons I have here. This is what I was thinking of course minus the jam.

Can I have the jam in your jar?

Jokes on all of us, soy327 - she's using the little square mason! :laugh2: For reference, below is an 8 oz. widemouth mason...These take a different liner and ring than do the JJs or the square masons. It's 3" across. The 16 oz. widemouth has the same diameter, it's just taller. I use CDN 14s in these.

Crazzie, the link below is the wicking guide from WickIt. It is what I use to roughly compare how different kinds of wicks stack up against one another. Since the recommendations are based on paraffin candles, there's a range of sizes suggested rather than just one wick. HTH

http://www.wickit.net/recommendations.html

The link below is to Wicks Unlimited's main page where you can click on the particular wick to see the ROC data, etc. as well as the description for the wick.

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/candle_wicks.php

Both are wonderful resources to help with wick selection and sizing - bookmark 'em for future reference, BUT understand that the data is based on the wax used when the candle was tested by the manufacturer. One size does NOT fit all and your data may vary considerably. For example, I am not in agreement with some of the information listed for the Heinz Stabilo & Stabilo KST (CD & CDN) wicks. My experience is quite different from what is reported there... So don't take what you read in the charts and tables as gospel - it may be very different from the results you get with your candles. PAgirl89's experience is another great example of this. Those charts and data are meant to be used as GUIDELINES, not absolute truths!

As for what to do next - here's what I would do:

Test only one fragrance, no dye, straight 464, no additives.

Pour three candles, each with a different wick size.

Let 'em sit up to cure for several days, then weigh each one before beginning testing. You don't have to test them all at once, but do burn and keep notes for each one separately.

Test period is roughly 1 hour per inch of inside container diameter (set a timer so you don't forget to extinguish the testers on time).

Trim the wick to 1/4" before each burn.

Rate the hot throw near the end of each burn period from 1-5, with 5 being the strongest.

Note the MP width, amount of hangup, residue, etc. at the end of each test period.

It's also helpful to note the flame height, whether it flickers, dances or sputters, any wick mushrooms, etc.

Let the candle cool completely after each test.

Trim the wick and weigh the candle again to see how much wax the wick consumed (ROC) during the first burn.

Then light it up and repeat until the candle is burned all the way to the end.

Do this for all 3 wick sizes and then evaluate your data. If you are in the right ballpark on the sizing, one of those 3 wick sizes should perform better than the other two. That'll give you a good place to start with your other FOs. If you are still unsatisfied with the hot throw, test a different type of wick (CD perhaps) the same way you tested the ECOs.

Once you "dial in" a wick, do one more test - a powerburn. Light the candle and let it burn all the way to the end without trimming the wick. One complete torture test. Note how hot the outside of the container becomes, the condition of the wick ('shroom, weak flame, etc.), the hot throw, etc. If your candle is wicked well, even burning the candle from beginning to end with no maintenance in between will still produce reasonably safe, pleasing results (although I expect the total burn time will be shorter). HTH

[EricofAZ]

Crazzie,

Stick with the 464. No need to order 415. Changing wax will not help you at this stage. 464 is a fine wax and an excellent place to start for containers.

Some time ago I did a comparison with 444, 464, C3 and CB135. I have not updated that post, but recently I finished off the burn and took some HT measurements (how far away I can be and still smell it). 464 is just fine.

Stella says she can scent you out of the room with her soy. I'm sure she can. My reason for abandoning FO's in soy is personal. I would probably be $10K into it if I was trying to perfect soy. Yeah, it might take a couple of years, but I want to move faster with a good HT candle so for me, changing to palm or paraffin was the decision that I made.

I did find redeeming reasons for using soy on a personal level. I looked at soy in massage candles, skin lotion, clamshells, and unscented restaurant candles and the restaurant candles are by far the best personal use for soy.

Crazzie, if you are firm on perfecting a really strong HT soy candle, go for it. You may just be in the beginning stage of your cost investment. Do some research on FO's that are approved for soy. Avoid any that are not. Not all FO's work in soy so don't re-invent the wheel, just go with what the suppliers say works and / or what the soy masters on this forum say will work.

For the person that thinks you should give it up at the $2K number I have two things to balance. 1) yeah, take a word of caution about how much money you throw into a project, 2) for the expert that can build a great soy thrower from first try to rocket earth shattering product in less than $2k, please, oh please, feel free to share your recipes.

[Stella1952]

I would probably be $10K into it if I was trying to perfect soy

There's that word again... I did not set out to "perfect" making soy candles. My goal was to learn how to make a decent soy wax container candle and go from there if I was still interested. It takes years and years of working with a medium (or product) to "perfect" it and I am not sure that many people actually do - I sure haven't! I remember the first soy candle I bought and how impressed I was with its beauty, simplicity and fragrance. It inspired me to see if I could learn how to do the same thing.

for the expert that can build a great soy thrower from first try to rocket earth shattering product in less than $2k, please, oh please, feel free to share your recipes.

I'm no expert and I dunno about "rocket earth shattering products," but I didn't spend $2K learning to make soy container candles that had a good hot throw. No "secret" recipe here - I have freely discussed my formula many times. IMHO it's all about learning how to make quality ingredients and materials work together.

Wicks I have

ECO 8 Coreless- Bittercreek

EXO 14 Candlescience

ECO 10 -Bittercreek

Crazzie, I like sample packages of wicks hat contain several of many sizes of a particular wick because so often, the size you need is the ONE you don't have! I hope the size you need isn't a 12... :undecided

Hang in there and post your latest results in the veggie wax forum. I have a feeling that success is waiting for you right around the corner.

[soy327]

Stella, Love that swirley candle you've got there:yay:and that was a very informative post I am sure it will help alot of people here on the forum.

[crazzie]

Thanks everyone for the reponses, at least I have a starting point. I think I just purchased too much!

Everyone on this board is awesome!

[crazzie]

Thanks Stella you are AWESOME!