What Am I Doing Wrong??

[Catlover]

Arrrggghh!! I've been using the same wax (464), same wicks (CD), same jars, same pouring temp, same room--everything, for dozens and dozens of candles. But the last 30 or so I've made have had some serious issues! Where before things usually set up pretty well with the occasional heat gun needed on top, now EVERY one has sinkholes and when I do use the heat gun, some still end up with the tiny bubbles or pockmarks. I've been pouring at 150-155 (which has worked fine up to this point), and some of these were closer to 160-165--no difference. I let them cool uncovered.

The last bunch I did, I thought I'd try the box over the top while they cooled...YIKES. I went about my day thinking my little babies were safe and snug under there, and when I took the box off it was a disaster. Deep, gaping maws of craters around the wicks, and the tops looked like an army of little soldiers had been marching all over them. I've heat-gunned these, so we'll see how they look later. (My heat gun blows the d*#m wax around too, which doesn't help.)

These candles were made from the very last of a 50 lb. box of 464, if that makes a difference. Wax dregs?? This is not the time of year for this kind of problem!

[jonsie]

Could room temp or humidity be a factor? On my side of the world the weather is warming up and happily my candles are looking better too.

One other suggestion is to check your thermometers and even your digital scales (if you add additives).

[islandgirl]

Wow.. Seems all the waxes are having issues..

I just got a bad box of C-3, then there is the GG Palm, now the 464..

Seems the veggie waxes are having the issues..

Always happens during busy season too...:rolleyes2

[Cindy/WI]

hey islandgirl what was wrong with the C3? i just ordered 10lbs from CS today. i didn't want to order a full box just in case it's from a bad batch seeing there's been a few pp saying theirs was bad.

Wow.. Seems all the waxes are having issues..

I just got a bad box of C-3, then there is the GG Palm, now the 464..

Seems the veggie waxes are having the issues..

Always happens during busy season too...:rolleyes2

[Jena]

I use C-3 and had been having problems with rough tops, frosting, & synersis. I tried everything that I could think of but couldn't get things right. With help and suggestions from Stella and Angie at Elevance (can't thank these two enough!) I think I've worked out all the issues. I'm still a novice after 5 years of doing this, but I believe that the issues i was dealing with were due to the change in climate. Everybody's conditions and formulations are different, but what worked for me is tempering the wax and increasing my pour temp by 20-35 degrees seems to have made everything alright. And now i can stop pulling my hair out and go back to the business of making candles.:smiley2:

Edited October 21, 2010 by Jena
Had to finish my thought.

[islandgirl]

Hey Cindy- I had one bad box last week that was from the same batch and lot as the rest of mine.. Here is the link to the thread and a recap of the C-3 issues..

Done testing the weird batch.

1st candle - tough to burn, small flame, had to dump out wax to keep lit.

Pulled some more to test from same box - Wick drowning on 2nd burn !

So - The bottom half of the C-3 melted and performed differently than the top half.. Bottom half of box melted cloudy with soapy bubbles in the pot. Plus I noticed little strands of what looked like oil in the wax when melted that would disintegrate when mixed in the melted wax.

Maybe they greased the machines during this batch and it got in the wax?

Not only can a lot/batch be different, but part wax in a box itself..

Now I have 5 cases of pumpkin candles I can't use... UUGGHHH..

The fun of candle pouring during the busy season :rolleyes2

The candle to the left is from the top half of box.

The candle to the right is from the bottom half of box.

The candle to the right drowned out shortly after taking this picture.

I have tested many candles from this lot and I think it was an isolated issue with this one box. All other candles are burning fine. I have about 25 of them burning right now on the dining room table. They are from lots before and after the time posted on the lots bad batch..

Arrrggghh!!

These candles were made from the very last of a 50 lb. box of 464, if that makes a difference. Wax dregs?? This is not the time of year for this kind of problem!

No it should not...

CATLOVER - Sorry - Did not mean to hijack the thread. But it like I said many of us seem to be having veggie wax issues. And your right.. This is not the time of year for it, but it always seems to happen during busy season. Every busy season I always seem to get wax or oil issues!!! AAAAHHHHH

Edited October 21, 2010 by islandgirl

[annie123]

Did you change your FO load? The temperature and humidity do play a role but I would just pour at a cooler temp.

[Catlover]

No worries, Island Girl! Funky wax is funky wax, no matter which kind! I will add to my litany of woes massive wet spots, which I never, ever had before. So I shot the sides of those jars with the heat gun, and watched hundreds of little air bubbles come to life and shoot to the surface. What fresh hell is this?

I've gone through 100+ lbs. of wax with this same combo and great results. All these problems are new. It's baffling.

To sum up:

*Sinkholes, some huge

*Lots of air bubbles, which I don't see while wax is liquid, but appear when I heat gun the tops, leaving bubbles or pockmarks on the surface after cooling

*Wet spots, big ones

Annie, I used the same amt. of fo that I always have, same pouring temp, etc. The only possible variable, other than a hex on the wax, is my house is a little cooler (but I've made candles at this same time of year with no trouble before). It hasn't been humid at all--very dry, actually. The pouring temp issue has such WIDE differences--I had settled on 150-155 and it worked for me. When I had poured cooler in the past, the results weren't great, so I tried hotter based on some other posts, but now it seems all bets are off. I'll try pouring cooler again.

At least I have a brand new box of wax ready to open and I'll just hope & pray it's a good one for all the Christmas candles waiting to be made!

Edited October 21, 2010 by Catlover

[annie123]

IMHO I have noticed that some FO's don't do well with the 464...the one that comes to mind is Cinnabuns from ICS. I gave up using that one in 464 because my candles just come out awful.

[Catlover]

I've had a couple like that too--my disaster candles were from tried & true fo's, except for one. I've gotten a wire shelving unit that I'm going to start cooling them on, which will hopefully be better than just sitting on the kitchen table (also they'll be out of the way of people & doors whooshing the air around all the time). I'm converting our spare BR to a workroom, which will have to be an improvement over doing all this in the kitchen!

[jonsie]

Yay for the new workroom!

And by the way, have you checked your thermometers?

[Shewill5]

Today, I broke down and called Lonestar about the CB135 that has white chunks all through it because they have not called me back after checking their warehouse like they said they would. They told me veggie wax is never consistant but to me it looks like a very bad batch and has no scent throw no matter what I mix in to help.

I offered to send a 2lb sample back to them but am not having much luck here. Are we just out the money when we get a bad batch of wax?

[Catlover]

Yay for the new workroom!

And by the way, have you checked your thermometers?

I know! I'm so excited to get my own space, although now anyone who spends the night is relegated to a twin bed with lots of candle paraphernalia all around instead of a nice, pretty bedroom. Gotta make choices!

Actually, I did just replace the battery in my thermometer and noticed it was reacting much faster to temp changes....maybe it was on the blink before. It's the digital kind with the probe thingy, which seems to work pretty well except for when I'm doing really small amts. of wax for quickie orders--if the wax isn't very deep I don't think it's very accurate.

That stinks about the weird wax--I guess all the distributors say veggie waxes are inconsistent; that's their out to keep from having to replace or refund, right? I'm just glad that some of my crap candles are in great holiday scents; I'll just burn them at home. My nose may be shot, but everyone else will enjoy them!

[Stella1952]

Bottom half of box melted cloudy with soapy bubbles in the pot. Plus I noticed little strands of what looked like oil in the wax when melted that would disintegrate when mixed in the melted wax.

Maybe they greased the machines during this batch and it got in the wax?

Islandgirl, remember the bad batch of C3 not long after Elevance took over manufacturing C3? You posted some really graphic pictures of that ugly mess! If memory serves, it was some issue with a mechanical gizmo... soy lecithin burning... aha - here's the link (page 3, post #22):

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showpost.php?p=747383&postcount=22

What was the lot# of your most recent bad case? I'm fixing to order, so I'd like to make sure I miss that batch!

Today, I broke down and called Lonestar about the CB135 that has white chunks all through it

I can see from your photo why the different appearance caused you to be suspicious! Have you made any candles with it? If so, what problems did you have? If you experience problems with the finished candles, you will get better service by calling the manufacturer of CB135, NGI. They are the ones with the labs, access to their manufacturing records, etc. Lonestar just sells it - they don't make it.

what was wrong with the C3? i just ordered 10lbs from CS today. i didn't want to order a full box just in case it's from a bad batch seeing there's been a few pp saying theirs was bad.

Just because you read that some folks have problems with a particular brand of wax does NOT mean that YOU will have issues! Ordering 10 pounds gets you a bag of wax that is NOT in the manufacturer's carton, so if you do have a problem, there's no way to tell what lot or batch your wax came from. Unless YOUR wax is from the same lot and your issues are the same, don't automatically assume that there will be problems if you order a case or that other problems you may be experiencing are related to a genuinely bad case or batch of wax. While others were tearing their hair about the bad batch referenced above, I was blissfully cranking out C3 candles with no problems whatsoever because I did not have any wax from those particular batches.

Also - notice that Islandgirl posted her test results and photos so that folks could see what was happening to her candles. That helps a great deal on the rare occasions that a truly bad batch of wax gets through the manufacturer's quality control, which appears to be the case in her situation.

While seasoned candlemakers are quite familiar with how their wax behaves, many folks relatively new to soy wax do not realize that there can be small differences between batches (not only with wax, but FOs, other additives and wicks, too), as well as seasonal issues with soy wax. Whenever the seasons change, many posts appear about wet spots, syneresis, rough tops, frosting, etc. ...it's a seasonal ritual.

Bad batches of wax DO happen sometimes, but not nearly as frequently as folks allege... I have been lucky to have never gotten a bad batch of wax. I have, however, experienced annoying issues that were caused by local or home environmental conditions, changes in my technique, overheating the wax, equipment issues, etc. - in other words, stuff that was happening on MY watch. When I corrected MY issues, my candles went back to behaving. Before I suspect the wax (assuming that its appearance is normal), I take a hard, long look at what's going on in my pouring room and what has changed. If nothing has changed there, I start testing each aspect of my candle to see where the problem lies... the FO, the dye, the additives, the wax, the wick. So far, it's never been the wax... but one day, my luck'll run out!

Also worth a mention - for those of you who do not stir your wax much while melting, Prestos and Turkey fryers have a heating element that is either ON or OFF. When it's on, the element gets much hotter than the setting on the thermostat (which only tells the element at what point to turn on/off). Without stirring the wax, the stuff closest to the element at the bottom is exposed to higher temps for a longer period of time than the wax on the top. It's easy to inadvertently overheat some of the wax without the average temperature of the entire pot ever getting above 185°F. My dream is to have one of those nifty hot air jacketed melters which heat very evenly. Until then, I'll be slowly stirring my wax every few minutes and adding my 9 pounds to the Presto gradually so I can stir as it all melts (ya can't stir if the whole Presto is filled with wax flakes!). I've found it makes a big difference or I surely wouldn't bother!

Another tip: NEVER rely on the thermostat of your melting pot to regulate the temperature. Keep a thermometer (or two!) in the pot at all times. The wax gets hotter more quickly the less that is in the Presto, so remember to check frequently if you are melting a small batch or as the level of the wax in the Presto goes down as you are pouring.

And by the way, have you checked your thermometers?

Jonsie is soooo right! Check the calibration of your thermometers regularly. They get flaky without any notice. When another member suggested this some time back, I checked and found that only TWO of my 5 thermometers read the same! There was a 12° difference between the highest and lowest temps among those thermometers!

In this thread, people are having issues with three different kinds of soy wax made by three different manufacturers! It helps to start a thread with the type of wax in the subject so others who use that same kind of wax will see your post and can compare notes with you.

It's important to include the batch or lot number of the wax you suspect and all pertinent details about how you are pouring, temperatures, FO load, etc. Photos help a LOT!

I hope some of this will help resolve some of the issues discussed here. If not, please start a thread about the batches of wax you suspect are bad (with lot numbers!) and contact the manufacturer for service.

[Catlover]

As always, thanks for the words of wisdom, Stella! I'm going to get another thermometer rather than just relying on the same one all the time. Have you found any particular type to be more reliable?

Gotta make several candles today while this crazy front comes through and strong, warm winds are buffeting the house; I hope the candle fairies aren't afraid of storms!

[islandgirl]

Today, I broke down and called Lonestar about the CB135 that has white chunks all through it because they have not called me back after checking their warehouse like they said they would. They told me veggie wax is never consistant but to me it looks like a very bad batch and has no scent throw no matter what I mix in to help.

Have you tested the wax to see if it burns different. I get that often with soy wax. Kinda like frosting on the flakes.. It has not affected the way my candles burn or smell.. So even tho it looks funny, it still might perform fine.

[StarSpin]

Well geez, I am having problems too. Just getting back into the candles after some time off. I mix 415 and 115.

I'm having problems with the heavier scents. They all get extra mushrooms (more than usual) and eventually turn into a puny flame by mid jar. (using 6%)

The lighter and medium scents work great, (use about 8%) but the bakery fo's are driving me nuts! I can't wick scents like gingerbread cookies, pumpkin souflee, etc (omg and everybody wants this one, lol) It's all the thicker fo's. Never had a problem before.

I tested 415 alone and I think thats the wax that is giving me problems. It is similar looking to the pic posted - only I have bigger clumps of wax stuck together. It is dated 8/21/09 - is just too old? I do have a lot number. I know I am not overheating. I don't know what to think!

[islandgirl]

I'm having problems with the heavier scents. They all get extra mushrooms (more than usual) and eventually turn into a puny flame by mid jar. (using 6%)

I am having that problem with a few spiced scents right now. :rolleyes2

I wicked up on them and there are burning ok now...:rolleyes2

But why after years with no problems and great burns, why all of a sudden, does this happens. (The get a third down the jar burn-out crap!!!)

Its very inconsistent and annoying. It seems no matter how much testing is done, you candles performance can change like the wind..

Ugghh. Wax now spiced oils are giving me problems.. I feel your pain!!!

[StarSpin]

But why after years with no problems and great burns, why all of a sudden, does this happens. (The get a third down the jar burn-out crap!!!)

Yes!!! Me toooooo! But the lighter and medium scents burn awesome. Go figure. This is NOT the time of the year to NOT be able to make pumpkin! LOL

Sigh...all I do is test! The other day someone asked me if it was easy. I said if you like to torture yourself, you'll be fine! LOL

Sorry you are going through this too. The next box of wax will be great! right? right! :smiley2:

[Stella1952]

Just getting back into the candles after some time off.

Were your FOs old? Were your wicks old? FOs have been reformulated to be pthalate-free in the past couple of years. Some people have found this not only has affected the fragrance & throw they expected from a well-known FO, but also the performance of their candles. Perhaps ones you used before have. Perhaps taking time off changed your procedure in a subtle way. Sometimes wicks can absorb moisture if not stored airtight. Sometimes wax is compromised if not stored airtight away from sunlight... There could be many explanations...

If the wax has no odor, try melting, cooling completely, then remelting before adding FO & pouring.

If things are not working right, why not get a small amount of fresh everything and see if you still have problems?

Methodical, logical testing will reveal where the problem lies if you have the patience to troubleshoot one issue at a time.

In this thread, people are having issues with three different kinds of soy wax made by three different manufacturers!

... make that four...

[StarSpin]

Methodical, logical testing will reveal where the problem lies if you have the patience to troubleshoot one issue at a time.

Hi Stella,

Thanks so much for the great info!

New wicks and new fo's. Thankfully I am at the bottom of the box and will order new wax Monday.

Thanks so much!

[Stella1952]

New wicks and new fo's. Thankfully I am at the bottom of the box and will order new wax Monday.

... which means late next week, the testing begins anew!

At least you have some previous success and experience on which to build. Hopefully, the testing will go quickly and smoothly for you.

I will say that reformulated FOs have made things more challenging... what I remember as a great fragrance from 2005 doesn't necessarily mean the same FO purchased from the same supplier will have the same properties today. This can be quite disconcerting and necessitates finding other sources for favorite fragrances. :undecided

[Shewill5]

Stella thanks for all the info! I will call the manufacturer if this happens again.

Have you tested the wax to see if it burns different. I get that often with soy wax. Kinda like frosting on the flakes.. It has not affected the way my candles burn or smell.. So even tho it looks funny, it still might perform fine.

It doesn't burn differently and melts like it should but I couldn't get much scent throw from it. Even adding paraffin did not help much. I used the same recipes that were used with 464 but had very different results so have decided to keep the wax for a scentless project.