FO seepage

[pmurphyfan]

I poured three candles the other day using 444 and 1oz of FO. Since I am in the testing phase I poured each candle at different temp (135, 130, 125)

The one I poured at 135 has major FO seepage, the one I poured at 130 has some and the one at 125 none. In addition this is the second round with the same FO and dye. The first time it didn't seep (those were poured at higher temps). I think I may be losing my mind...............

[topofmurrayhill]

Any further description or photo of the problem could possibly help.

This is pretty puzzling on the face of it. You're using the higher meltpoint soy with USA added, so it has a very good fragrance holding capacity. That makes is hard to envision major fragrance bleed at 1 oz per pound with just about any FO.

One possibility is measuring error. Some scales don't read correctly when you add weight gradually, which would result in adding a lot more FO than you expect. If you think there's any chance this is the problem, you could test it. Tare a container on the scale, add the FO the same way you normally do, then remove it from the scale. Tare another empty container and pour the FO into it all at once. You should get the same reading.

Another possibility is an FO that's very incompatible with the wax. However, with soy wax and FO purchased from a candlemaking supplier, this is pretty unlikely. The chances are a little bit higher using soap fragrances, but even then it's pretty rare.

That's all I can think of unless you're adding something else to the wax.

Edited February 6, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[pmurphyfan]

I did add coconut oil, 76 degree. I forgot about that.

I will be trying it again (same fo, dye etc). I'll add pics in the next day or so.

The FO is from candlewic and is L'occitaine Verbena type for candles only.

[topofmurrayhill]

I assume this isn't happening with other fragrances, so it might just be a compatibility issue. I don't know if Candlewic specifically tests their FOs in soy. But definitely make sure you're not having a measuring issue.

Dunno how much CO you're using, but I'd also try it without that before giving up on the fragrance. Never know what you might learn. I think that 76 degree CO probably has a large liquid phase component at room temperature, which could be lowering the FO retention of your wax.

[Judy, USMC]

I did add coconut oil, 76 degree. I forgot about that.

I'm not sure of what your wax combo for this test is. Is it 444 and USA and CO?

[topofmurrayhill]

I'm not sure of what your wax combo for this test is. Is it 444 and USA and CO?

The 444 is preblended with USA.

[pmurphyfan]

@Top, no this has not happened before. I have poured at least 24 super ugly candles LOL, but none of them had this issue. I did use this particular FO with candlewics soy 125 and did not have this issue. I switched to the 444 because I could not fine one good thing about the 125 from candlewic on this forum, just complaints. According to the advertising banner at candlewic all their FO's go well with soy. Must be true if I read it on the internet, right? :rolleyes2

@Judy, I held off on the CO but my house is 126 years old, frame and heated by a boiler. Soy candle pouring and my house temperature are NOT the best of friends. I actually have to pour upstairs in my daughter's playroom because it is the smallest room in the house so it is the warmest.

Edited February 6, 2010 by pmurphyfan

[pmurphyfan]

Right, I am not adding USA, it is already in there

[pmurphyfan]

Maybe it is the CO.( I'm using 1tbs pp) While the rest of my house is 64 degrees that room gets up to 78 degrees. AH HA. Just thinking out loud here. Jeez, DUH with me

Want to hear the worst part? That 135 degree candle with the horrible wet pool on it has the most perfect flawless top I have ever created. Of course.

Edited February 6, 2010 by pmurphyfan

[topofmurrayhill]

It'll be very interesting to hear if there's a difference without the CO.

[LuminousBoutique]

definitely try without CO and see what you come up with... I only added CO after thoroughly testing without it, two of my FO's don't perform well with it.

[Stella1952]

Just because the wax may have an additive similar to USA in it does not mean you cannot add USA when melting for your batch... Some folks have good results adding USA despite what the manufacturers put in at the factory.

[topofmurrayhill]

Just because the wax may have an additive similar to USA in it does not mean you cannot add USA when melting for your batch...

That doesn't seem to have anything to do with what we're discussing.

[Stella1952]

Sorry you cannot see any possible tie-in.

[topofmurrayhill]

Sorry you cannot see any possible tie-in.

Don't be sorry; just enlighten us.

[kandlenutz]

hi, I use the 444 and havent had fo seep out to date, However, I too, am still new at this. I usually use 1.2-1.6 oz of FO/# of wax. Some of my scents i use the co in too. I use that at 1 tbsp/#. not sure if that helps you or not, but just thought I would add that. Hope you get it all worked out:)

[Stella1952]

Since I am in the testing phase I poured each candle at different temp (135, 130, 125)

The one I poured at 135 has major FO seepage, the one I poured at 130 has some and the one at 125 none. In addition this is the second round with the same FO and dye. The first time it didn't seep (those were poured at higher temps).

When you say major seepage, are we talking about covering the entire surface of the top, droplets or what? Photos are so helpful...

Just throwing out some ideas & questions... You said you poured at those 3 temps - and we know the temp of the room in which you poured - to what temp did you melt the wax and at what temp did you add the FO? Did you prewarm the FO? How much did you stir?

I understand about the drafty house... I have had seepage once or twice but usually that's a warm weather/cool AC problem here... If you have not trimmed the wick yet, you might just remelt the seepy one in the oven (warm to ~175°F), once the candle has liquified stir it a little, then turn the oven off, and let the candle cool in the oven.

[pmurphyfan]

When you say major seepage, are we talking about covering the entire surface of the top, droplets or what? Photos are so helpful...

Just throwing out some ideas & questions... You said you poured at those 3 temps - and we know the temp of the room in which you poured - to what temp did you melt the wax and at what temp did you add the FO? Did you prewarm the FO? How much did you stir?

I understand about the drafty house... I have had seepage once or twice but usually that's a warm weather/cool AC problem here... If you have not trimmed the wick yet, you might just remelt the seepy one in the oven (warm to ~175°F), once the candle has liquified stir it a little, then turn the oven off, and let the candle cool in the oven.

The entire top had a pool, almost to the ends of the container. Before I posted this I used a heat gun on the two misfit candles and well, the pools are gone now. What in the heck?? I knew I should have taken pics at that time but my camera wasn't charged. I poured them on Wednesday and it was Saturday when I looked at them again. (this was when I noticed the pools). Let me clarify, the first candle had the large pool and the second had maybe 6 drop size pools.

I melted the wax slowly up to 180 and I added the FO at 170. I did not pre-warm the FO. How do you do that? I did stir a lot while the wax was cooling, then between each pour as the temp want down and I stirred the wax in the containers as well.

Edited February 8, 2010 by pmurphyfan

[chuck_35550]

I had this problem with a new formulation on vineyard muscadine. I had to shake the stuff up and hold my lip just right to keep it from forming this gross orange stuff on the surface and on the bottom. It just didn't want to mix with the wax and was not seepage.

[pmurphyfan]

LOL maybe I should cross my eyes when I'm stirring I wish the wax could talk.

[Stella1952]

The entire top had a pool, almost to the ends of the container. Before I posted this I used a heat gun on the two misfit candles and well, the pools are gone now....I poured them on Wednesday and it was Saturday when I looked at them again. (this was when I noticed the pools). Let me clarify, the first candle had the large pool and the second had maybe 6 drop size pools...

How can you pour a candle and not look at it for 3 days??!!!*faint* ALWAYS take a look after the candles have cooled just to see what's happening... I look at newly poured candles a couple of times a day until they are lidded and labeled.

I think this is a simple case of syneresis. Have you poured the same wax/FO combo again since then? I suspect that the ambient temp in the area where the candles cooled had a temp swing (from warmer to a lot cooler) in the initial 12-24 hours after the candle was poured. That's enough to produce this condition in many FOs and waxes. Because the problem disappeared when you heat gunned the top, this indicates to me that this was syneresis caused by a temporary environmental temperature fluctuation.

I melted the wax slowly up to 180 and I added the FO at 170. I did not pre-warm the FO. How do you do that?

I heat my wax in a Presto. I use pour pots. I add the FO & dye I need directly to the pour pot (not the melting pot). I set the pour pot on the surface of an electric frypan to warm the FO (one couyld use a griddle or pan of simmering water, etc.). Then when the FO has warmed, I add the wax to the pour pot and stir until it reaches my desired pour temp. The idea is to reduce the amount if difference between the temp of the FO & the wax. Especially during cold weather, the FO's temp can be a LOT colder than the wax, which can "shock" the wax and cause problems with frosting as well as drop the temp far too quickly in the pour pot. I found I had less frosting issues when I prewarm the FO.

This condition is not uncommon and is nothing to really freak out about. As you saw, heatgunning generally takes care of it.

To avoid it, try to pour candles on days when the temperature is moderate and doesn't fluctuate heavily. There are plenty of days here during the winter that I simply do not pour candles because I cannot control the heating/humidity well in my home. HTH

[pmurphyfan]

How can you pour a candle and not look at it for 3 days??!!!*faint* ALWAYS take a look after the candles have cooled just to see what's happening... I look at newly poured candles a couple of times a day until they are lidded and labeled.

I'm pretty sure you don't want me to bore you with my litany of excuses. LOL. Literally though I have never left them for that long but I had lots going on.

I think this is a simple case of syneresis. Have you poured the same wax/FO combo again since then? I suspect that the ambient temp in the area where the candles cooled had a temp swing (from warmer to a lot cooler) in the initial 12-24 hours after the candle was poured. That's enough to produce this condition in many FOs and waxes. Because the problem disappeared when you heat gunned the top, this indicates to me that this was syneresis caused by a temporary environmental temperature fluctuation.

Here is a question then, if my house generally has a temperature change of say about 8 degrees in average daily, am I doomed?

I heat my wax in a Presto. I use pour pots. I add the FO & dye I need directly to the pour pot (not the melting pot). I set the pour pot on the surface of an electric frypan to warm the FO (one couyld use a griddle or pan of simmering water, etc.). Then when the FO has warmed, I add the wax to the pour pot and stir until it reaches my desired pour temp. The idea is to reduce the amount if difference between the temp of the FO & the wax. Especially during cold weather, the FO's temp can be a LOT colder than the wax, which can "shock" the wax and cause problems with frosting as well as drop the temp far too quickly in the pour pot. I found I had less frosting issues when I prewarm the FO.

Ohhhh! I am going to try this. I do not have a presto pot but I do have two pour pots.

This condition is not uncommon and is nothing to really freak out about. As you saw, heatgunning generally takes care of it.

To avoid it, try to pour candles on days when the temperature is moderate and doesn't fluctuate heavily. There are plenty of days here during the winter that I simply do not pour candles because I cannot control the heating/humidity well in my home. HTH

I was thinking about doing that but since I am in Chicago that basically means I couldn't pour candles from October through April LOL. I figured I have to work it out somehow.

Thank:) you

And thanks to everyone else that chimed in as well. I am going to hopefully re-do this combo tomorrow.

Oh sorry, I am new to the board and I am not so great with the quote thing yet. My answers are in there with your questions.

Edited February 8, 2010 by pmurphyfan

[topofmurrayhill]

I think your temperature swings can cause problems with frosting or maybe even the tops not setting up right, but it's hard to believe it can cause a puddle of fragrance oil on top of the candle when you're only using 1 oz per pound. In fact it sounds a bit preposterous, especially with the manufacturer claiming a capacity up to twice that much. I'm still looking forward to hearing the results without the CO. If that additive decreases the fragrance capacity of the wax, it would be a good thing to know.

[Stella1952]

but it's hard to believe it can cause a puddle of fragrance oil on top of the candle when you're only using 1 oz per pound

Whether you believe it or not, it has happened to me with C3 with the same FO load and no CO. Soy wax does some strange things.

[Stella1952]

since I am in Chicago that basically means I couldn't pour candles from October through April...if my house generally has a temperature change of say about 8 degrees in average daily, am I doomed?

LOL - I think you'll be able to work it out. I KNOW your house can't be as drafty as mine or you'd never be able to afford the heating bills up there! You will find a good pouring area and develop your own techniques to overcome these problems. You're new to soy and this is just part of the learning curve.