Permatex blue silicone

[samandkennasmom]

Hi!

Ok, gotta question...I went and bought this, I read on here that it works better than the hot glue. I think it was Trappeur's post that Stella said how she does it. I let it set for 2 hours and thought I would start pouring. I thought I would make sure it had dried so I just lightly tugged on one, it came right out, tried 3 of them and same thing...any help anyone? PLEASE?? I really need to get 50 candles done and don't really trust the hot glue much anymore... TIA

Hugs~

Michele

[Judy, USMC]

Michele -

I think this is the thread you are referring to: http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87385&highlight=permatex

I've found that the more you use the longer it takes to cure. Just a little dab should hold - it should spread out as pressure is put on it to adhere to the bottom. I use a small dab - no larger than the size of a pea. I'm using the GE but it should be the same for the Permatex.

Also, you should make sure there is no manufacturing residue in the bottom of the jar. A quick wipe with a paper towel has prevented any sticking problems for me. I believe Stella washes her jars.

HTH

[samandkennasmom]

Hi Judy!

Thanks for the help, I do wash the jars and ya know, I don't think I used more than like you said, about a pea size. A little did kinda squish out but I tried not to get carried away. They had the red, also a black and a copper color I think. I really wanted to do up those candles tonite but I just don't know what to do now, don't think I should pull them all out and try with the hot glue like I used too...maybe if I just wait till tomorrow they will be ok, I'm just kinda worried now that this isn't gonna work for me...

Hugs~

Michele

[Judy, USMC]

Patience grasshopper! Although mine set up in a couple of hours I always do the wicking the night before... just for insurance sake.

Let me know how it goes.

[deb426]

Yeah, I do the same as Judy. I wick the night before I want to pour. I use GE. Sometimes I will wick early in the morning and pour that evening, but I usually try to get 12 hours or so in before I pour.

[samandkennasmom]

Oh goodness girls...grasshopper got no patience!! I thought I would be good to go in 2. Fooey!! Well, I guess that means I'm on for tomorrow. I thought maybe I didn't have the right stuff or something. Thanks so much for the help, don't what I'd do without ya's!!

Big Hugs Tonite!!

Michele

[Stella1952]

The blue stuff seems a little thinner to me and I had more problems with it, which is why I use the red even though the color of the blue appeals more to me. The blue needs to set up longer. Judy is soooo correct about the amount: at first, I used way more than I needed, but I learned less is better. JUST a dab will squish all the way to the sides of the sustainer base - doesn't need to ook out much at all. It also helps to kinda wiggle it around before augering it in with the pen barrel - helps to distribute the adhesive more evenly. I feel certain that the temperature/humidity of the environment where the glue is applied plays a role in how quickly RTV hardens & gains strength (warmer & dryer is better than cooler and more moist). I prefer to wick several hours before to be sure those puppies ain't lettin' go.

I have recently discovered wiping inside the containers with alcohol prep pads (hadda buttload of 'em left over when Mom died - she wouldn't want 'em to dry up & go to waste, ya know ), then quickly wiping with clean paper towels. I still prefer the results from Parson's Sudsy Ammonia and hot-as-hell water - air-dry upside down, but sometimes I get in a hurry, too! Whatever cleaner/method you choose, do clean the inside of the glassware 'cause it has residue on it from manufacturing that you can't see or even feel, but it's there and will diminish adhesion both of adhesives and wax (ie. more wet spots). I know the Bigtime Candlemakers don't prewash their glassware, but I also notice they have a lot of wet spots, too... It doesn't eliminate 'em, but it sure helps...

[samandkennasmom]

Hi!

You girls were all right, how dare I doubt you? I thought that Stella had said buy the blue so I got that goofed up. Wow, that's a surprise, something new for me! I gave a tug and don't think they are moving, which makes me feel alot better, seems like once in a great while, they would move with the glue. My sister said she could never get hers out even when she pulled and pulled but I have a friend of mine give me back her jars, the ones that I have grubbied up and made prim, I just reuse them to put stuff in cause they look cute sitting around, and have noticed that once in a while the wick tab is slid over to the side of the jar. That freaks me out when I seen them. I know that she power burns alot so maybe that has something to do with them moving, not sure, but she's getting some of these new ones, that's for sure! Thankyou so much for sharing your tips, girls!!

Hugs

Michele

[Judy, USMC]

Hi!

... but I have a friend of mine give me back her jars, the ones that I have grubbied up and made prim, I just reuse them to put stuff in cause they look cute sitting around, and have noticed that once in a while the wick tab is slid over to the side of the jar.

Now remember, I'm using the GE clear silicone. With that being said I get the sustainer base out of used candles by using pliers. To break the seal I'll twist the jar one way while twisting the pliers in the opposite direction. Doesn't always work ... but it's a more successful method than trying to pull it straight out.

Happy pouring!

[Stella1952]

I have a friend of mine give me back her jars, the ones that I have grubbied up and made prim, I just reuse them to put stuff in cause they look cute sitting around, and have noticed that once in a while the wick tab is slid over to the side of the jar.

While I hate having jars to clean out, this is an INCREDIBLY VALUABLE way to see what happens to candles when they leave my protected care! The jars sometimes come back blackened, with dead moths & match fragments in the wax, burned to one side, etc. It gives me a great view into who is following common sense instructions and who is just lightin' & forgettin'. I was observing this at a friend's place just last night... The container of mine I picked up had hangup on one side where no one had bothered to turn it; the other side had some soot indicating it had been burned in a draft, etc. What was heartening was how NASTY the OTHER candles looked!! TOTAL BLACKOUT on a couple of the more expensive "brand name" container candles; a pillar totally blown out to one side, wax run out of the candle plate onto the table, etc. Yuck!! At least I know that when mine are completely abused, they still hold up better and safer than the high-priced, brand name candles.

[topofmurrayhill]

Just remember that these silicones release gases while curing, sometimes toxic ones, so you don't want to pour wax over the stuff until it's good and set. At least overnight is probably a good idea. The manufacturers usually say that they are fully cured in 24 hours.

[Stella1952]

Just remember that these silicones release gases while curing, sometimes toxic ones

Silicone rubber releases acetic acid as it cures. That's the sharp, vinegary smell associated with silicone rubber RTV. The stuff I use releases very little compared to the clear RTV silicone rubber sealant frequently used. To make the "toxic" statement is a little on the side of hysteria. Venegar releases acetic acid, too, but this hasn't stopped people from canning pickles. Edited December 7, 2009 by Stella1952

[topofmurrayhill]

Silicone rubber releases acetic acid as it cures. That's the sharp, vinegary smell associated with silicone rubber RTV. The stuff I use releases very little compared to the clear RTV silicone rubber sealant frequently used. To make the "toxic" statement is a little on the side of hysteria. Venegar releases acetic acid, too, but this hasn't stopped people from canning pickles.

I'm sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. I obviously wasn't referring to acetic acid.

Silicones release different gases while curing depending on the brand. Your Permatex stuff releases 2-butanone oxime. Personally I would let that stuff disperse rather than pouring wax and sealing it into the candle, but that's just me.

[Judy, USMC]

OK - I use the silicone and this caught my attention. Did a little relearch and found the CAS number for 2-butanone oxime (96-29-7) and then looked it up on the EPA site.

Looks like the more common name is Methyl Ethyl Ketoxine. The EPA studied inhalation exposure rates from 6hrs per day, 5 days a week for 4 weeks at varying levels of parts per million. Yes, there was some olofactory (sense of smell) damage at the end of 1 week at 100 parts per million - but in this study there was both inhalation and whole body exposure.

I'd be worried if I worked in a paint factory and was exposed to it in large quantities. Looks like the most common problem is irritation of the eyes, nose or throat. Never had that problem.

So a little dab on a couple dozen tabs ... I have no fear!

As far as sealing it into the candle ... I don't remember ever seeing any type of gas bubble form around the wick base. Maybe on a microscopic level. My rationale tells me that by the time the wax melted and IF it was released into the air, it would be far more diluted.

Edited December 8, 2009 by Judy, USMC

[topofmurrayhill]

I'd be worried if I worked in a paint factory and was exposed to it in large quantities. Looks like the most common problem is irritation of the eyes, nose or throat. Never had that problem.

So a little dab on a couple dozen tabs ... I have no fear!

I don't fear either - just suggesting that silicone adhesives should get adequate cure time. They all contain some harmful ingredients and typically give off noxious reaction products during curing.

The concern level about 2-butanone oxime has apparently been creeping upwards, at least in Canada and the EU. Besides being a skin sensitizer and damaging mucous membranes on inhalation, it's a suspected carcinogen.

I see no reason one can't wick containers in advance of needing them. Give any volatile stuff ample opportunity to dissipate and have no worries about them being in the product.

[Debbie73]

Ok, now that ya'll have totally freaked me out about the silicone....I have a question. Is this now dangerous to use in my candles? The chemistry lingo is making my head spin! I use the GE Silicone II. (the clear stuff) I always wick my candles the day before, maybe 24 hours or a little less. I use enough that it will squish out a little from the sustainer, just to make sure the wick will stay put. :confused:

[Judy, USMC]

Ok, now that ya'll have totally freaked me out about the silicone....I have a question. Is this now dangerous to use in my candles?

No - DO NOT FREAK - I use it. They expose those poor test animals to extremely high levels just to see if and how sick they get.

Factories make this stuff and sell it to industrial manufacturers so they can use it daily to make paint, laquer, varnish, glue & petrolium products.

I use the same silicone you do. Entire tubes are used to seal up cracks all the way around their bathtubs every day by lots of people and it cures inside their homes. Then look at the amount on the bottom of the wick tab. That should put it in perspective.

The label will have all the warnings no matter what you use. Just takes a second to read it.

Hope that helps!

Edited December 8, 2009 by Judy, USMC

[topofmurrayhill]

Is this now dangerous to use in my candles? The chemistry lingo is making my head spin! I use the GE Silicone II. (the clear stuff) I always wick my candles the day before, maybe 24 hours or a little less.

I totally agree with Judy.

Silicone adhesives do contain some chemicals that could be harmful if you are exposed to high concentrations of them. That is true of lots of products you use in everyday life. Using it to wick candles is not going to hurt you.

I personally give the stuff ample time to cure out and become inert before pouring candles. I don't know how much it matters, but I think it's just sensible and there's no reason not to. If I need to wick a container fast I can use something else.

I think what you are doing is great with the 24 hour cure. Also you are using a different product. Don't quote me on this because it's been a long time since I looked into it, but I think GE Silicone II releases ammonia while curing. You may not want it in your candle but breathing tiny amounts is of no concern.

It's just a matter of understanding the product and adapting accordingly. Something like hot glue doesn't cure and doesn't release anything. In fact it's made entirely of candlemaking materials. That and foam stickies can be very handy for quick wicking.

[Stella1952]

Now that Top has everyone freaked about TOXICITY and we're all GONNA DIE, let me ADD to the panic. Foam is notorious for giving off nasty toxic chemical fumes when heated - like the foam on the adhesive tabs, for example? And what's in the adhesive ON that foam? And what about the polyvinyl chloride in the hot glue? NOTHING IS SAFE!!! RUN FOR THE HILLS!!! *faint*

For Pete's sake, Top - the amount you are talking about is so MINUTE that it is not even worth mentioning because people absolutely FREAK OUT when they see the word "toxic." In the first place, most of anything released during the cure does so in the first 1-2 hours after application when the RTV is chemically changing from a liquid to a solid. The extra cure time (cure time is also to allow a substance to gain most of its eventual strength, for crystal structures to harden, as with concrete for example) may be VERY important if you are using the stuff to make a head gasket or something, but to stick on wick tabs, it just isn't necessary! It's also very important to allow the acetic acid & other compounds released to completely dispel when using RTV to seal aquaria so the fish won't go belly up. But for gluing on wicktabs with a small amount, your dire warning is simply hysterical road apples! Trotting out toxic chemicals simply to ARGUE and impress others may be great sport for you, but it is simply confusing and frightening people unnecessarily. I daresay they should worry more about the hexane used to extract the soybean oil from soybeans or whatever is used to manufacture paraffin, not to mention those loathesome chemicals used to make FOs!!! Can we please stay somewhere within the realm of reasonable risk of exposure here? :rolleyes2

Edited December 8, 2009 by Stella1952

[topofmurrayhill]

Stella, there is a time to STFU.

My original post was a perfectly reasonable statement that silicone adhesive should be given sufficient cure time before pouring the candle. It didn't scare anybody until you pointlessly attacked it and threw the topic off track.

BTW, there's no PVC in craft glue sticks. They are made of waxes and resins that are actually used in candlemaking.

Now go back to huffing your silicone.

Edited December 8, 2009 by topofmurrayhill

[Stella1952]

Stella, there is a time to STFU

Right back atcha, Top. I believe it was YOUR post that led down the road of toxic chemicals and unnecessarily alarmed people who hang on your words. Now go back to pumping up your cranium.