Same jar - up 3 wick sizes?

[KoalaGirl]

Hi everyone, Im having trouble wicking 'Angel' {local supplier}. Im using the same wax and jar that I use for all my scents. Most of the scents use the same wick size but with this one, Ive already gone up two sizes and still the flame is too small on second and subsequent burns. With this one, I didnt use dye and I cut the FO from 9% to 6% since I suspected something was clogging the wick {although no big shrooms}.

Is it common to have to go up THREE sizes using the same type of wicks wax and jars?

Using:

8oz metro

CB-I35/CB ADVANCED 1:2

CDN 8 - IO and now on 12

Angel 6%

The 12 gave a great melt pool and throw on the first burn but I suspect its going to go pear shaped like the 8 and 10!

[Stella1952]

You really need to burn these all the way down and not try to anticipate what you think is happening and act too soon... Step back and rewick with the varying sizes and burn for prescribed test periods of time all the way to the bitter end. HTH

[Meridith]

Stella is correct that you should burn a candle all the way to see how it will burn. However, there are times that you can tell before the candle is done burning that the wick is too small and do not need to burn the candle all the way to see if it will burn correctly. If you can tell for sure, why waste your time continuing to burn a candle that obviously is way under-wicked? Just rewick it and go on from there.

The other thing too that you should know that it IS possible to have to wick way up on the same jar with a different FO. For example, I am currently testing a new scent and no matter what wicks I use, it is tunneling really bad with a single wick. This is not the first FO I've had that I can't single wick with this jar regardless of the wick I use or the FO load. So I can either double wick or not use this FO in this jar. I will not DW this jar as I don't like the look in this particular jar. In my other jar that I DW, I had to wick up 4 wick sizes to get this FO to burn without tunneling.

[soy327]

Koalagirl, I am new to this forum. I am wondering about the ecosoya 135 and ecosoya advanced mixture that is what you are using right? How is the jar adhesion? I'm getting ready to make one tonight and have read that you can mix these 2 waxes. I use the cd wicks is that the same as the cdn? I am also using the metro jar. I have used a cd 16 one wick with some success and others need the cd 18. Are you double wicking these jars?

Edited October 16, 2009 by soy327
typo

[deb426]

In my jj, the smallest wick I use is Eco 6 and the largest is Eco 12. For that series, that is a range of four wicks, 6-8-10-12. Although most FOs fall in 8 or 10, I can't say that it is rare to find a 6 or 12.

HTH

Deb

[KoalaGirl]

Koalagirl, I am new to this forum. I am wondering about the ecosoya 135 and ecosoya advanced mixture that is what you are using right? How is the jar adhesion? I'm getting ready to make one tonight and have read that you can mix these 2 waxes. I use the cd wicks is that the same as the cdn? I am also using the metro jar. I have used a cd 16 one wick with some success and others need the cd 18. Are you double wicking these jars?

Thanks for your replys everyone. I did burn the 8 and 10 all the way to the end and it was a dismal performance. The 12 is on the 3rd burn now, and contrary to what I first thought, so far so good {but not getting excited just yet!}

Soy327, The CB -135 had beautiful tops when first poured but developed horrible lumpy tops on subsequent set ups. The CB-Advanced, behaved beautifully so, since CB-135 is supposed to have a better throw than the CB Advanced, I mixed them at a ratio of 1/3 CB-135 + 2/3 CB Advanced. I get a decent throw and smooth tops everytime.

I think the CD and CDN's are similar, but the CDN's have a special wax coating. As far as how they perform and if the sizing is the same, you'd have to ask someone who's used them both.....Stella perhaps? I'd be interested to know the answer to that as well, e.g. is an 8 CD the same as an 8 CND as far sizing goes?

The jar adhesion is very good. I might get the odd wet spot and frosting but Ive learned to colour my candles very pale pastels so wetspots and/or frosting isnt noticeable.

My metro's are 226 grams {8oz?}. They are 2 1/2 inches diameter. I imagine that if I used a CND 16 or 18 I would have a roaring fire so maybe the CD and CDN's are not the same?

No, no need to double wick this jar.

Good luck.

[topofmurrayhill]

The difference between CD and CDN isn't the wax coating, because the wick manufacturer usually isn't responsible for that. In the case of imported types I suspect it's only shipped as raw spools.

CD and CDN have two different chemical treatments. Otherwise they are manufactured identically, so you could say they're exactly the same "size" of wick. The way the wick performs in practice depends on how well the chemical treatment works with the wax and fragrance you're burning. You may find that one is better than the other or they might be very similar.

[Meridith]

Some have touted the CDNs as being capable of burning a jar with a 3"or more diameter clean with a single wick. My tests have shown that this is not true for me. The jar, a wide mouth mason, that I am currently trying to find a single wick for, is wicked with a CDN 22, which is the largest size in that wick, and its not burning any differently, or giving me any larger melt pool than any other wick I've tried. And this is not the first time I've experienced this with these wicks and heavier FOs. I don't believe that the special coating allows this wick to burn a larger melt pool than a CD wick in the same size would (i.e. CDN 22 or CD 22). I don't believe that they burn that much differently than a plain ole CD based on my experience. Advice can be helpful, but you simply must test for yourself and not always rely on the advice of others as gospel no matter how much they sound like they know what they are talking about. It just might not be the same for you.

[Stella1952]

The waxes, additives, FOs and dyes used make a huge difference in the results one gets. I can only vouch for the combos that I use. I have noticed that people who use the "100%" soy waxes have more issues with wicking, hot throw and undesirable crystallization (frosting, cauliflowering, etc.) than I experience with NatureWax C3. While we can all suggest things to one another, there is no guarantee that any given suggestion will work as well for another person's combination of ingredients. In short, there is no magic bullet that will work in all cases. The idea is to have lots of tricks in your bag from which to choose.

I use CDNs for nearly all my candles (C3, Ecosoya PB & palm waxes) with a couple of exceptions: votives and molded candles (not pillars). For those I use CDs and square braid, respectively. I have not tested the range of CD & CDN sizes side by side to see if one performs better than the other. I have tested some of the mid-sizes and I have found that the CDN is a little more efficient than the CD, but this doesn't hold true for every FO/dye combination.

The jar, a wide mouth mason, that I am currently trying to find a single wick for, is wicked with a CDN 22, which is the largest size in that wick

The standard wide mouth 8 oz. mason (3"W x 2½"H inside) is what I use for the majority of my container candles. I use a CDN 14 in most cases; however, we do not use the same wax. There are times when I have stepped down to a 12, but I haven't had to step up to a 16. Stabilo (CD) and Stabilo KST (CDN) are manufactured in a range from a 2-30, however, I do not know of a supplier who carries anything outside the 8-22 range. Wickit has the complete range and will provide samples by request. I have some 24s & 28s for testing that I obtained that way. Edited October 16, 2009 by Stella1952

[Meridith]

The waxes, additives, FOs and dyes used make a huge difference in the results one gets. I can only vouch for the combos that I use. I have noticed that people who use the "100%" soy waxes have more issues with wicking, hot throw and undesirable crystallization (frosting, cauliflowering, etc.) than I experience with NatureWax C3. While we can all suggest things to one another, there is no guarantee that any given suggestion will work as well for another person's combination of ingredients. In short, there is no magic bullet that will work in all cases. The idea is to have lots of tricks in your bag from which to choose.

I use CDNs for nearly all my candles (C3, Ecosoya PB & palm waxes) with a couple of exceptions: votives and molded candles (not pillars). For those I use CDs and square braid, respectively. I have not tested the range of CD & CDN sizes side by side to see if one performs better than the other. I have tested some of the mid-sizes and I have found that the CDN is a little more efficient than the CD, but this doesn't hold true for every FO/dye combination.

The standard wide mouth 8 oz. mason (3"W x 2½"H inside) is what I use for the majority of my container candles. I use a CDN 14 in most cases; however, we do not use the same wax. There are times when I have stepped down to a 12, but I haven't had to step up to a 16. Stabilo (CD) and Stabilo KST (CDN) are manufactured in a range from a 2-30, however, I do not know of a supplier who carries anything outside the 8-22 range. Wickit has the complete range and will provide samples by request. I have some 24s & 28s for testing that I obtained that way.

That's good to know the CDN's go up to that size. I'm guessing they might burn lilke a torch, like the HTP 1312's do? But, I think you are assuming I use 100% soy, which I don't. I also don't use dye. And even though you use a different wax than me, I just don't know how you can get a clean burn with a CDN 14 and a wide mouth mason jar? Your burn conditions must be so different from mine because there is no way my burns would be good with a wick that small in that jar. All our experiences will be different that's for sure, but sometimes, you read stuff and I can't help but scratch my head and wonder how or what they are doing to get that result. It just goes to show you how important testing is.

[soy327]

Koala girl,

I remelted and repour tonight and it's going to crack in that cicular motion again I can already see it and it's been about 1.5 hours. What are you heating to and pouring at? My kitchen is about 72 degrees I didn't have a box to put over them( made 2). I never used a box with the advanced but sometimes I would get little bubbles on the sides of the jar. They looked good but the shrinkage was bad. I know this wax is designed to shrink up for no wet spots, but it looks funky if it warms a little.

I met the owner of NGI when I went to a convention that Bittercreek had in May he said to put in the frig, but when they reach warm temp later it still melts in spots. That is why I thought I would try to mix the two.

Thanks,

Linda

[Stella1952]

I think you are assuming I use 100% soy, which I don't. I also don't use dye. And even though you use a different wax than me, I just don't know how you can get a clean burn with a CDN 14 and a wide mouth mason jar?

I dunno why, Meridith - the size is right in the middle of the recommendations by Wickit... How hot were your 8 oz. WM jars with a CDN22?

I use liquid dye, USA and 1 oz. FO pp. I'll go light one and take a photo for ya. Or maybe I should take a photo of all the danged empties I haven't cleaned out yet...:embarasse I remember you having trouble imagining single wicking a 4" jar, but that certainly can be done, too!

I wasn't implying that you use "100%" soy - it was simply an observation I was making about the posts I have read here in general. I don't remember what wax you use... whatever it is, it certainly seems hard to burn, given the data you've shared...

[WillowBoo]

I use C3, 4627, and throw in a few other goodies and I get a full melt pool with a couple of my FO's mid way down the jar in the wide mouth masons. MOst take a CDN 14. I would have a flame-thrower with a CDN 22

[Meridith]

I dunno why, Meridith - the size is right in the middle of the recommendations by Wickit... How hot were your 8 oz. WM jars with a CDN22?

I use liquid dye, USA and 1 oz. FO pp. I'll go light one and take a photo for ya. Or maybe I should take a photo of all the danged empties I haven't cleaned out yet...:embarasse I remember you having trouble imagining single wicking a 4" jar, but that certainly can be done, too!

I wasn't implying that you use "100%" soy - it was simply an observation I was making about the posts I have read here in general. I don't remember what wax you use... whatever it is, it certainly seems hard to burn, given the data you've shared...

I think you might be thinking I have problems with every scent. :confused:Not so. I only have had trouble with a few FOS that are very heavy so I just don't use that jar for those scents. I still don't agree that a 4" jar can be successfully wicked with one wick and my tests showed that. Remember the pictures? Those jars were not clean and yet they had no FO in the wax. The one that was the cleanest had a wick that was a torch. The addition of the FO would certainly allow for more hang up and I don't think would give me a burn that would be acceptable. A torch is not acceptable to me either.

BTW My jar with the CDN 22 is not hot at all - way too much hang-up. I'm still burning it but its not going to clean it up. The FO is too heavy. It's not the 8 oz widemouth either, its the pint wide mouth. I can post pictures too if you'd like?

[Meridith]

I use C3, 4627, and throw in a few other goodies and I get a full melt pool with a couple of my FO's mid way down the jar in the wide mouth masons. MOst take a CDN 14. I would have a flame-thrower with a CDN 22

Of course you can get a full mp with a CDN 14. 4627 is a paraffin blend - that addition of paraffin can make it easier to wick . For a time I tried adding the 4627 to my wax but I hated using that stuff. Its a mess and a PITA. Wicks great though and I was able to wick way down.

[Stella1952]

Koalagirl, sorry for hijacking your thread with our discussion of CDNs and single-wicking containers 3" and over successfully! :embarasse I have more to say on that subject but don't want to continue doing so in your thread where it has little application. Didn't mean to be rude to you...:undecided

[Meridith]

Stella is correct and I too apologize Koahlagirl. Stella and I get into talking and forget. I like to debate and discuss with her so its easy to forget. I think we are both very passionate about what we do. I do apologize. Yours was a good question. I do think it can be common to have to wick up, regardless of the wax you use. Just keep testing and you'll get it figured. But dang, it can be frustrating.

[WillowBoo]

I use very little 4627...

[KoalaGirl]

Girls, no need to apologize. Its all 'wick' related and interesting reading. The more thats written about a subject, the more I can read, and the more likely I am to pick up little nuggets of info :-)

My Angel with a cnd 12 is limping along. Burn 5 and still major hang-up but a lovely throw. I'll burn to the end to see if it catches up but so far, Im not happy with it. I have some HTP 105's so thats my next plan for this one!

Im understanding now, just what a MAJOR role, FO has in burn quality {amount of FO used, with this scent, doesnt seem to make a difference} I experienced this wick drama with Asian Amber as well.

A lot of scents, burn beautifully in this wick/jar combination using a CDN 8.

Just thinking out loud here> 'Clogged wicks' have me baffled. Now the wayward jar above, has a struggling tiny flame. Logic tells me the wick is not getting enough fuel e.g. its clogged. This same wick, does NOT get a shroom.......soooo.....am I right, in thinking that a big shroom, DOES NOT mean a clogged wick? Does a shroom mean that TOO MUCH fuel is getting sucked up by the wick? and that the wick cant burn the fuel off efficiently? Its probably basic 101 knowledge to you guys but its an ''ah ha'' moment for me!

Understanding WHY things happen, would make finding a solution easier......well thats the theory anyway!

[topofmurrayhill]

'Clogged wicks' have me baffled. Now the wayward jar above, has a struggling tiny flame. Logic tells me the wick is not getting enough fuel e.g. its clogged. This same wick, does NOT get a shroom.......soooo.....am I right, in thinking that a big shroom, DOES NOT mean a clogged wick? Does a shroom mean that TOO MUCH fuel is getting sucked up by the wick? and that the wick cant burn the fuel off efficiently? Its probably basic 101 knowledge to you guys but its an ''ah ha'' moment for me!

Mushrooms aren't really candlemaking 101 in my experience; you could call it more of an advanced subject. There's no easy-peasy explanation for exactly what it means when a wick mushrooms and what to do about it. It all depends, and you have to kind of combine it with other observations to figure out what's happening. The only thing you can say for sure is that something in the candle mixture isn't burning off cleanly and it's accumulating at the tip of the wick.

In my mind, wick clogging is when something in the candle mixture makes some length of the exposed wick non-functional so that the flame dies down. A larger wick might help but not in every scenario. Sometimes the candle mixture needs to be adjusted or it won't work well with any wick. Even the melt point of the wax and the diameter of the container can have an impact, because those things affect how quickly the wax level drops and exposes new wick.

When you get clogging, the wick could still accumulate unburned carbon glop and form a shroom, or the tip could just trim off.

[topofmurrayhill]

I still don't agree that a 4" jar can be successfully wicked with one wick and my tests showed that. Remember the pictures? Those jars were not clean and yet they had no FO in the wax. The one that was the cleanest had a wick that was a torch. The addition of the FO would certainly allow for more hang up and I don't think would give me a burn that would be acceptable. A torch is not acceptable to me either.

I'm doubtful about single-wicking 4 inch containers too. However, as regards your tests, it might have been worth trying them with FO. Fragrance can have all different effects on the burn rate, but most of them will make the wax easier to melt. Effectively the melt point goes down when you add something that's liquid at room temperature. That might be especially relevant with soy candles since they need higher amounts of FO than paraffin.

[Meridith]

I'm doubtful about single-wicking 4 inch containers too. However, as regards your tests, it might have been worth trying them with FO. Fragrance can have all different effects on the burn rate, but most of them will make the wax easier to melt. Effectively the melt point goes down when you add something that's liquid at room temperature. That might be especially relevant with soy candles since they need higher amounts of FO than paraffin.

The reason that I tested w/out FO was because I actually had a customer that wanted that particular jar with one wick and no FO. She wanted them to line a buffet table in her formal dining room and did not want any fragrance to compete "with her meal" (her words) and felt a line of single wicked jar would look classier on that table than a line of DW'd jars. Unfourtunately it did not work out for her with that jar and she ended up going with a bunch of votives on the table. She was happy with the result which is all that mattered to me. But I don't believe the addition of FO would have helped.

Koalagirl - don't you just hate that when a wick is too small but the throw is great? That just frustrates me.

[KoalaGirl]

Koala girl,

I remelted and repour tonight and it's going to crack in that cicular motion again I can already see it and it's been about 1.5 hours. What are you heating to and pouring at? My kitchen is about 72 degrees I didn't have a box to put over them( made 2). I never used a box with the advanced but sometimes I would get little bubbles on the sides of the jar. They looked good but the shrinkage was bad. I know this wax is designed to shrink up for no wet spots, but it looks funky if it warms a little.

I met the owner of NGI when I went to a convention that Bittercreek had in May he said to put in the frig, but when they reach warm temp later it still melts in spots. That is why I thought I would try to mix the two.

Thanks,

Linda

Hi Linda, I deal in Celsius so you will have to convert. Since the metro's are taller than they are wide, they cool faster than a wide jar. The ideal way for candles to cool is slowly, therefore pouring them hotter, allows them to cool slower. I heat the wax to about 80 degrees and add the dye {if im using it}. Cool to about 75 and add FO and pour about 65. I used to pour at 52 but experienced a few air pockets around the wick. The higher pour {65} still often gives me a hairline circular crack but there [so far} doesnt appear to be any air pockets lurking beneath. The circular crack is not really that noticeable but if your pedantic, just heat the top with a gentle hairdryer {I dont have a heat gun}. The top always resets lovely.

Guidlines for pouring temps dont take into account different shaped jars. Even the same shape but a different thickness of glass can yeild different results.

If soft pastel colours are used, imperfections dont show up as much!

I live in a nice moderate climate where temperature extremes arn't a problem. Sometimes I put a box over the cooling candles and that helps to keep the temp of the whole candle {including top} uniform.

Dont forget.....Im referring to CELCIUS temps.

Meridith: Given that we are told ''a good melt pool is needed for a good scent throw", yes, a pathetic melt pool with major hang up and a GREAT THROW seems contradictory to what SHOULD happen! And with the problem child candle, Im using the lowest amount of FO I have ever used in any candle {6%}. Ive come to expect the unexpected.