Wax Cracking

[DerekB]

I'm back to testing Ecosoya CB135. I poured several 8oz tins and used 6.25% Gardenia FO. I'm using CDN, ECO, and LX wicks. I heated to 185 degrees, added FO and UV inhibitor, and then poured at 130.

After two burns, I've noticed that the ECOs cool differently than the other wicks. The ECOs are really rough and cracked after cooling were the others are relatively smooth. Now, I'm performing the 3rd burn test and I'm noticing for all the candles near the wick a lot of cracking and caving in of the wax is occuring. I'm noticing bubbles coming from the cracks. Is this normal? What would cause this to happen? Could they be air pockets? Could it be buring too hot? How could I avoid this?

I'm so perplexed...

[Stella1952]

Are you talking about the wick wax cracking or the candle? A picture is worth a thousand words. Sometimes, what we think a poster is talking about may be a very different issue... If you can, please post some photos that illustrate your issues so we can see what you are seeing...

If the wax is caving around the wick, you may need to make some relief holes and do a second pour. This shrinkage happens sometimes because the candles cool unevenly. Sometimes, it simply is a characteristic of the wax being used. I don't think the kind of wick being used matters at all in this situation... this happens because of temperature issues - from pouring to cooling. HTH

[DerekB]

Stella,

Thanks for the response. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a camera at this time. The wax I'm referring to is the actual candle; not the wick. About 20 minutes after I began buring the candles for the 3rd time, I noticed the wax cracking around the wick and sporadically, bubbles coming from the cracks. When I initially poured the candles they seemed to cool nicely. They were smooth and even at the top. I let them cure for 48 hours before buring them for the first time.

Again, I'm sorry I can't share a picture right now.

[Judy, USMC]

I'm back to testing Ecosoya CB135. I poured several 8oz tins and used 6.25% Gardenia FO. I'm using CDN, ECO, and LX wicks. I heated to 185 degrees, added FO and UV inhibitor, and then poured at 130.

It would help to know the diameter of the tin and the sizes of the wicks you used. Do you know if the wick wax is soy or paraffin?

130 sounds just a tad bit too high for CB-135. I usually pour mine just before the slushy stage. Just when a very, VERY thin film starts forming on the top. (I keep a towel under the pour pot so the bottom doesn't set up too quick.)

The more details we can get the better guidance we can give you.

[DerekB]

The container is an 8oz tin (3" in diameter). I'm using the following wicks and sizes.

ECO 10, 12, 14

LX 22, 24, 26

CDN 14, 16, 18

I already realize that the CDN 18 and ECO 14 are too big. I'm not sure how the wicks are coated.

[Judy, USMC]

CB-135 is temperature sensitive. When I pour cool the tops are relatively smooth. When I poured hot I got the cracking.

Now think of the temperature of the melt pool once you've lit it off. If the wick is too large (read hot) the melted pool will react the same as a hot pour. Kinda looks like the surface of the moon, huh? The closer you get to the proper wick the more the surface will even out. BUT - there will come a time when you may have to decide if you want a smooth top that doesn't throw or a great throwing candle that will always have some surface imperfections.

There are others on this forum that may recommend some additives to address the problem. Universal Soy Additive is one of them. I've never used it. And my customers don't mind how a candle looks as long as the throw is there!

[DerekB]

Thanks Judy...

I would prefer throw over visual appearance. In fact, after the first hour, the cracks disappeared.

The only reason I poured at 130 (and then covered with a cardboard box) is that my basement temperature is in the low 60s. I though hotter would improve overall results. Since I was pouring in tins I figured they would cool fast. To avoid cracking I though the hotter temperature would help avoid this. I guess I was wrong?

[Judy, USMC]

I think we're finally getting dialed in!

In a cool basement I would cover the pouring surface with cardboard or some other type of covering (even a towel) to make sure the bottom doesn't cool too fast. Pour Just Before the slushy state (don't worry - you'll get a feel for it.)

I would still cover with the box - especially around that cool of a temperature. May even want to lay a towel on top of the box. As the ambient air temp gets to 70 you can start thinking about scraping the box.

HTH

[DerekB]

Thanks...I'll let you know how the next round of tests go.

[topofmurrayhill]

A rough setup isn't anything unusual with soy wax. As for the wicks, I've often noticed the ECOs looking more gunky after a burn. They don't seem to use as tight a braid as CD and LX, so I figured maybe that's the reason.

[DerekB]

Thank you all for your responses. After reading through this thread again, I thought I'd make sure I was clear in what I was describing. As topofmurrayhill noted, the ECO wicks definitely are the worse looking candles after a burn. I'm definitely not too keen on that.

With that said, the cracking I was referring to was cracking in the candle wax around the wick as it was burning. Based on the previous input, should I assume this is occurring because of the way the wax initially setup as well as it not being properly wicked?

Now think of the temperature of the melt pool once you've lit it off. If the wick is too large (read hot) the melted pool will react the same as a hot pour. Kinda looks like the surface of the moon, huh? The closer you get to the proper wick the more the surface will even out. BUT - there will come a time when you may have to decide if you want a smooth top that doesn't throw or a great throwing candle that will always have some surface imperfections.

My LX-22 and LX-24 are still cracking when I start burning and I think the LX-22 is the right size for the candle combination. Again, could this also be related to the initial setup and pouring too hot?

Thanks!

[topofmurrayhill]

If you ever get bubbles and other funny business on your first burn, you probably have some air cavities developing around the wick during setup. That would have to be addressed by your pouring procedure.

However, it sounds like what you're talking about it just the rough setup you sometimes get with soy candles. Depending on how the wax is heated by the wick and how it cools, you can get all kinds of pitting and general ugliness as the melt pool sets up. That result could vary somewhat with different wicks, additives or whatever, but it might not be worth focusing on overly much. It's kind of the nature of the beast.

I may have misunderstood your observation of the ECO wicks. I thought you were talking about what the wicks look like after a burn, but I think you might have meant that the rough setup is worse with ECO than with the other wicks. That's possible.

A lot of the stuff you're running into is pretty common with soy waxes in general. The only one I know of that's kind of a departure from the rest in prettiness is CD-Advanced, but the scent throw is notoriously lousy. If you want to make vegetable oil candles, I think you have to live with the ugly stuff. If it's not ugly when you make it, it'll turn ugly eventually.

[Judy, USMC]

If it's not ugly when you make it, it'll turn ugly eventually.

Amen, Top!

Just wanted to add one more note. I know that CB-135 will change in appearance and volume - especially if stored in a warm area. I recommend not cutting the wicks until you are ready to use the candle. I had a batch in a store that lost their airconditioning last year. The wax swelled and almost covered the wick!

[DerekB]

Question...does it matter where you buy your wax? The current batch of CB135 I've been using was from Peaks. I've just ordered 10lbs from CS to see if there is a difference (and because I order my FO from them). I'm trying to save on shipping costs. I've seen on other posts the mention of lot numbers, but I don't see any lot numbers on the bag.

Thanks!

[DerekB]

Thank you all for your advice last week. I'm still trying to wick CB 135 and poured a few candles this week at 115 degrees (I know not as low as you pour, Judy ). Unfortunately, the tops ended up being really rough. When I originally poured it at 135 degrees, the tops were smooth. Of course, to make things more complicated, I increased the FO % from 6.25 to 8.25 because I wasn't getting any hot throw. Could this have contributed to the roughness?

Also, is there anything I can do to help the wax not look rough after a burn? I've noticed that depending on the wick I'm testing, the wax varies in roughness. Should I consider adding USA or coconut oil?

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

[topofmurrayhill]

I'm still trying to wick CB 135 and poured a few candles this week at 115 degrees (I know not as low as you pour, Judy ). Unfortunately, the tops ended up being really rough. When I originally poured it at 135 degrees, the tops were smooth. Of course, to make things more complicated, I increased the FO % from 6.25 to 8.25 because I wasn't getting any hot throw. Could this have contributed to the roughness?

The pouring temperature can have an effect on how the wax sets up and the amount of fragrance can as well. So can the type of fragrance. I found a few that always made the wax wonky no matter what.

It's important to learn something from every tester you make. To maximize that, I suggest you adopt a Golden Rule: Only change one variable at a time. It often seems like a good idea to adjust more than one thing at once but it never works out that way. You always end up having to go back to figure something out that you could already know.

Also, is there anything I can do to help the wax not look rough after a burn? I've noticed that depending on the wick I'm testing, the wax varies in roughness. Should I consider adding USA or coconut oil?

The USA could have an effect. I don't have experience testing with coconut oil or specifically how USA works with CB-135. I've only used it with all-soy flakes.

[topofmurrayhill]

Question...does it matter where you buy your wax? The current batch of CB135 I've been using was from Peaks. I've just ordered 10lbs from CS to see if there is a difference (and because I order my FO from them). I'm trying to save on shipping costs. I've seen on other posts the mention of lot numbers, but I don't see any lot numbers on the bag.

If there's any difference, it's not a difference you can count on over time.

You'll have the lot numbers when you purchase by the case.

[RichardLOZ]

This is a timely thread that I saw tonight. I was at the markets again today and was buring a couple of new candles that I had poured. More for testing purposes than anything else. May as well kill the 6 or so hours doing something useful

I also found that my wax was cracking around the wick. Keep in mind that this was the first burn.

Some details

50% GW 415 / 50% non-crystalising container palm

3" square jar

CDN 20 wick

Jasmine FO

I know from the shroom that my wick is a little on the large size and the fact that I got a full melt pool withing the first 3 hours or so on the first burn. The melt pool however remained 1/4 - 1/2 inch right the way through a 6 hour power burn.

Candle had only been poured the night before so had only cured for about 16 hours or so. (This candle was more to test an idea rather than anything else, hence the short cure time)

I am assuming that the cracking is due to the cure time rather than anything else, however if someone thinks otherwise, please speak up

As I said I think I will have to wick down to a CDN 18, but I dont think the oversize wick has caused the cracking.

Any ideas on this one welcome.

Cheers

Richard

[R.S.]

anytime I had cracking like that, it was because there are air pockets under the surface of the candle.

I take a bamboo skewer and poke four or five holes about 1/4 to 1/2 an inch from the wick and do a repour.

Should make all the difference.

[RichardLOZ]

I wouldnt have thought I would get the air pockets with the soy / palm blend, as I have never got them with straight soy, but it may be something to consider. I have a few more of these jars that I have not remelted which I am letting cure for some further time to see if I still get the cracking.

Cheers

Richard

[Judy, USMC]

I wouldnt have thought I would get the air pockets with the soy / palm blend, as I have never got them with straight soy, but it may be something to consider.

Although some do not believe they have air pockets in their palm candles, there are many others (I'm one) who have seen them. Here's a thread about the discussion: http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55735&highlight=palm+air+pocket And here's the search for more discussion on palm: http://www.craftserver.com/forums/search.php?searchid=1302333

I've never tested a 50/50 blend but it may be worth taking one of your testers and cutting into the top to see if there is a void. Who knows how that much palm has affected the candle.

[RichardLOZ]

Thanks Judy. I will remelt the wax removed from the bulk of the jars and do another pour, poking some relief holes and then doing a repour to see what result I get.

I just found it strange as this container palm is nothing like the glass glow. It actually comes in a 50lb box and is a solid block rather than beads like all of the other palm I have used. When melted and then poured it actually feels a little softer than the soy and has a very slight cream tinge to it, more so than the soy.

I actually love the way the 50 / 50 combination burns, although still also testing for hot throw, which at the moment does not seem as good as straight soy. Given the extremely short cure time so far, that could explain the throw, but another week or two of testing will tell me more.

Cheers

Richard

[topofmurrayhill]

I have no special expertise with mixing these waxes, but don't you think those cracks suggest that maybe the 50/50 blend you're testing doesn't work? Looks to me like the consistency of the wax as it sets up just makes it split in the center as it cools and shrinks.

That would certainly be my first thought if it happened to me. I've never come up with some blend off the top of my head and blammo, it just happens to be good. In fact, the first time I try blending anything it usually sucks in one way or another.

Unfortunately you've hijacked DerekB's thread. It's best to start a new one in a case like this.

[RichardLOZ]

Didnt mean to hijack the thread at all, just felt that adding to the cracking thread was more sensible than starting a new one, but point taken.

The cracks did not develop until about 2 - 3 hours into the first burn. I will try a different mix and see what result I get from that.

Cheers

Richard