dogmom1 Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 well maybe not a mystery for the experienced m&p people! i made a batch with ebc new natural base, which at the time i thought was the white base.... don't ask. 1 pound base, 1/8 c beeswax (melted in the microwave), 2 "ice" cubes of evaporated goat's milk, defrosted, didn't measure exact amt, 1/4 tsp of both coconut oil and and liquid soap, 1/2 tsp of both jojoba oil and glycerin, 1 tsp of both shea butter and olive oil and 2 1/2 tsp emu oil, plus 1/2 ounce of honeysuckle jasmine fragrance oil.made it friday nite. saturday am i took it out of the molds and it was kinda "bendy", just a tiny bit, like very hard rubber might be. no lather to speak of, took a while to get even a tiny bit of white lather, tho i wouldn't really call it lather. tried it again last nite, same thing.i was going to try remelting and adding more base, liquid soap and glycerin. this moring, i have lather?????? i only used it to wash my face and hands a few times. what could possibly cause the change?? it is making me crazy. it's almost like there was a coating on it that washed off??btw, this was my second batch. my first, the day before, different base (ebc white), no beeswax, no fragrance, 1/2 tsp less emu oil, rest the same, is totally awesome!does anyone know what happened??tia,eileen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Sounds like it may be the beeswax. The bar was hard by the second time you tried it? Also-- I sometimes find that when my bars are super hard I don't get a full lather until my second use washing with it. But once the lather gets going whoa mama!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmom1 Posted February 8, 2009 Author Share Posted February 8, 2009 Sounds like it may be the beeswax. The bar was hard by the second time you tried it?Also-- I sometimes find that when my bars are super hard I don't get a full lather until my second use washing with it. But once the lather gets going whoa mama!!!yes, i guess it is a little harder, but the lather thing is fascinating. glad to know that it's happened to you and that it will get better! these will stay home with me, good thing i actually love the fragrance!thanx candybee!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharon in KY Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Geezz I never heard of anybody adding that much stuff to 1 lb of M&P. I thought 1 oz period plus scent was the limit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairieannie Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Geezz I never heard of anybody adding that much stuff to 1 lb of M&P. I thought 1 oz period plus scent was the limit. LOL!! I add that much stuff all the time! Go crazy!! It's fun and I'm tellin ya, you can make an AMAZING bar of soap!dogmom~ I've had it happen before too, for whatever reason, the lather kicks in full gear after the first use or two.. I can't explain it either. Never judge a MP soap by your first use of it.. I guess I should remember to tell people that more often! Thank you for the reminder~ and WAY TO GO!! I'mj so glad you love your soap!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmom1 Posted February 9, 2009 Author Share Posted February 9, 2009 LOL!! I add that much stuff all the time! Go crazy!! It's fun and I'm tellin ya, you can make an AMAZING bar of soap!dogmom~ I've had it happen before too, for whatever reason, the lather kicks in full gear after the first use or two.. I can't explain it either. Never judge a MP soap by your first use of it.. I guess I should remember to tell people that more often! Thank you for the reminder~ and WAY TO GO!! I'mj so glad you love your soap!!thanx PA!! it took me a while to make the first batch, but i am totally hooked. i kept agonizing about what to put in it, then i finall said oh hell, how bad can it turn out? LOL hubbie loves the unscented (first batch), he breaks out a lot so no fragrance or color. my best friend is waiting for hers, i think the emu oil will be great for her rosacea. i'm going to play again tonite! gonna try something new, don't know what yet! maybe some colloidal oatmeal and some honey.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 The bases I buy allow me to add quite a lot of stuff to it. I like to push the parameters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlycoat2 Posted February 14, 2009 Share Posted February 14, 2009 Hi, I think there was too much oil in the mp. I add lots the same as PA and Candybee. In fact I too love to push it to the parameters but if you add the oils up you have gone over the recommended T amount for oils per pound of mp especially the emu oil.I think you will find that 1/2 tsp has made the difference. I would drop it as emu oil is very very rich and 1T is more than plenty per pound of base. I have done this before and the bar was bendy and had no lather. It turned out to be the oil amount stopping the lather and yes it was rubbery!Sometimes 1/2 tsp is enough to put it over the edge.Hope this helps, I love emu oiljo curlycoat2Melbourne Australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmom1 Posted February 18, 2009 Author Share Posted February 18, 2009 Hi, I think there was too much oil in the mp. I add lots the same as PA and Candybee. In fact I too love to push it to the parameters but if you add the oils up you have gone over the recommended T amount for oils per pound of mp especially the emu oil.I think you will find that 1/2 tsp has made the difference. I would drop it as emu oil is very very rich and 1T is more than plenty per pound of base. I have done this before and the bar was bendy and had no lather. It turned out to be the oil amount stopping the lather and yes it was rubbery!Sometimes 1/2 tsp is enough to put it over the edge.Hope this helps, I love emu oiljo curlycoat2Melbourne Australiathanx jo! i have been without internet access since saturday and it drove me nearly nuts! i tried a batch with less emu oil and no beeswax, lathering better, but still a bit difficult to get started. also still seems a bit drying. gues i'll continue to play, next time with 8 ounces tho! i will be able to use the soap, but i actually want it not quite so hard. what a complaint with M&P!!eileen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flicker Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Ok, I see a few problems here First, how can you properly label that for resale with the added ingredients? You'd have no idea where to put them on the label to label per FDA regulations. Since melt and pour soap is considered a cosmetic this would certainly pose a problem from that standpoint.Now anything added in 1% or LESS can be labeled at the end of the product label but certainly 1/8 cup is more than 1%. Adding that much to melt and pour can also cause problems as far as the integrity of the base and preservation goes. Personally I'd stick to adding fragrance oil and maybe one or two additional ingredients at the 1% or less. If you are adding that much to melt and pour I'd say take the plunge and make CP, you will NEVER look back...promise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairieannie Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Ok, I see a few problems here First, how can you properly label that for resale with the added ingredients? You'd have no idea where to put them on the label to label per FDA regulations. Since melt and pour soap is considered a cosmetic this would certainly pose a problem from that standpoint.Now anything added in 1% or LESS can be labeled at the end of the product label but certainly 1/8 cup is more than 1%. Adding that much to melt and pour can also cause problems as far as the integrity of the base and preservation goes. Personally I'd stick to adding fragrance oil and maybe one or two additional ingredients at the 1% or less. If you are adding that much to melt and pour I'd say take the plunge and make CP, you will NEVER look back...promise And I see a few problems here flicker:First, how do you figure melt and pour soap is a cosmetic? It's soap just like any other soap.. which does not require labeling.Two, if you have a good base to start with instead of a crappy one, you would be very surprised at how well it holds up to additives.. And Three.. I make CP soap too.. I looked back! Don't be making promises you can't keep! I'd hold a bar of my MP soap up to a bar of anyone else's CP soap with no hesitation. Please don't assume that CP soap is better just because you think it might be! I assure, you it's not always! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flicker Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Prairieannie, you best go back over the FDA website. Melt and pour soap is a cosmetic and regulated by the FDA. Not properly labeling this could put you in hot water with them. Most all melt and Pour soaps all contain surfactants (ie. detergents) in fact I've never seen one that does not but can't rule out there isn't one out there.This little blurb is direct from this page right on the FDA's site http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-218.htmlTrue soap (made from lye (alkali and fats) is not goverened by the fda but the rest sure are! And yes, my facts are straight and correct. (edited to add: I did make melt and pour soaps for nearly 8 years. I have made CP since 2000 and I made both for a time. I never looked back. I can add far more and change what I don't like easy as changing an oil. Everyone has a preference and I respect that but if a person needs to add 8-10 additional ingredients to an existing base, somehow I view that as an inferior product to begin with. Just my experience.)How FDA defines "soap" Not every product marketed as soap meets FDA's definition of the term. FDA interprets the term "soap" to apply only when -- The bulk of the nonvolatile matter in the product consists of an alkali salt of fatty acids and the product's detergent properties are due to the alkali-fatty acid compounds, andThe product is labeled, sold, and represented solely as soap [21 CFR 701.20].If a cleanser does not meet all of these criteria... If a product intended to cleanse the human body does not meet all the criteria for soap, as listed above, it is either a cosmetic or a drug. For example: If a product -- consists of detergents orprimarily of alkali salts of fatty acids andis intended not only for cleansing but also for other cosmetic uses, such as beautifying or moisturizing, it is regulated as a cosmetic. If a product --consists of detergents orprimarily of alkali salts of fatty acids andis intended not only for cleansing but also to cure, treat, or prevent disease or to affect the structure or any function of the human body, it is regulated as a drug. If a product --is intended solely for cleansing the human body andhas the characteristics consumers generally associate with soap,does not consist primarily of alkali salts of fatty acids,it may be identified in labeling as soap, but it is regulated as a cosmetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coco Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Most all melt and Pour soaps all contain surfactants (ie. detergents) in fact I've never seen one that does not but can't rule out there isn't one out there.SFIC among quite a few others have no surfactantsIngredients: Saponified Vegetable oils mainly Coconut Oil, Glycerine (kosher, of vegetable origin), Purified Water, Sorbitol (from berries, moisturizer) , Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), Soybean protein (conditioner), Titanium Dioxide (mineral whitener used in opaque soaps) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flicker Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 SFIC among quite a few others have no surfactantsIngredients: Saponified Vegetable oils mainly Coconut Oil, Glycerine (kosher, of vegetable origin), Purified Water, Sorbitol (from berries, moisturizer) , Sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), Soybean protein (conditioner), Titanium Dioxide (mineral whitener used in opaque soaps)Yes, SFIC bases are considered true soap per the guidelines except their crystal clear...which does have a surfactant and that yes, would need to be labeled as a cosmetic. However, MOST and again I stress most would fall under FDA regulations. If you read most ingredients labels for Melt and Pour soap you will see what I mean. I do stand corrected on SFIC bases but honestly few places sell those and although "some" people are using them not all are. It is just one of those things that needs clarification as most people assume soap is soap when that sadly isn't the case. Some are simple detergents that are called soap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairieannie Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Yes, there are MP bases that do not use detergents. And yes, there are many that are. I have read all of the things that you posted before, and again just now, and I still do not believe that all melt and pour soap can be shoved into the categories that you try to shove it into!! And if you've made MP soap for many years, then surely you know that MP soap base is created with lye ( alkali salt of fatty acids ) It's detergent properties come from the same place your soaps detergent properties come from.. unless of course it has added SLS or SLES. And even then.. it's added, but not the main source. I don't know of any MP soap that claims:is intended not only for cleansing but also for other cosmetic uses, such as beautifying or moisturizing,which is one of the criteria for it to be a cosmeticoris intended not only for cleansing but also to cure, treat, or prevent disease or to affect the structure or any function of the human bodywhich is one of the criteria for it to be a drugNot one single place on that page does it single out MP soaps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairieannie Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 I also should add this:How FDA defines "soap" Not every product marketed as soap meets FDA's definition of the term. FDA interprets the term "soap" to apply only when -- The bulk of the nonvolatile matter in the product consists of an alkali salt of fatty acids and the product's detergent properties are due to the alkali-fatty acid compounds, andThe product is labeled, sold, and represented solely as soap [21 CFR 701.20].If my product is labeled, sold and represented soley as soap, then it meets the criteria for soap as well! And again.. the bulk of the nonvolatile matter in the product consists of LYE... well, again.. we're okay. MP soap base is made from basically the same process as CP soap is made.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flicker Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Yes, there are MP bases that do not use detergents. And yes, there are many that are. I have read all of the things that you posted before, and again just now, and I still do not believe that all melt and pour soap can be shoved into the categories that you try to shove it into!! And if you've made MP soap for many years, then surely you know that MP soap base is created with lye ( alkali salt of fatty acids ) It's detergent properties come from the same place your soaps detergent properties come from.. unless of course it has added SLS or SLES. And even then.. it's added, but not the main source. Prarieannie, I am not going to argue with you any longer on this subject but here is a typical ingredients list for an M&P soapGlycerin, Propylene Glycol, Sodium Stearate, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Sorbitol, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Sodium Myristate, Triethanolamine, Sodium Laurate, Sodium Cocoate, Water, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe) Leaf Extract.That contains detergents and surfactants. Please tell me how this falls under true soap? Where is the alkali? There isn't one. Thus this particular list IS A COSMETIC. Like I said "most" melt and pour soaps are not made from saponified oils, lye and water with a fat. In fact NOTHING in that list even is considered as such. They contain detergents...plain and simple which makes them a cosmetic and not a true soap. Again:How FDA defines "soap" Not every product marketed as soap meets FDA's definition of the term. FDA interprets the term "soap" to apply only when --The bulk of the nonvolatile matter in the product consists of an alkali salt of fatty acids and the product's detergent properties are due to the alkali-fatty acid compounds, andThe product is labeled, sold, and represented solely as soap [21 CFR 701.20].If a cleanser does not meet all of these criteria... If a product intended to cleanse the human body does not meet all the criteria for soap, as listed above, it is either a cosmetic or a drug. For example: If a product --consists of detergents orprimarily of alkali salts of fatty acids andis intended not only for cleansing but also for other cosmetic uses, such as beautifying or moisturizing,it is regulated as a cosmetic. If a product --consists of detergents orprimarily of alkali salts of fatty acids andis intended not only for cleansing but also to cure, treat, or prevent disease or to affect the structure or any function of the human body,I guess I don't understand what isn't clear in that. It's pretty black and white. If your product contains detergents, it isn't soap. Plain and simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairieannie Posted February 18, 2009 Share Posted February 18, 2009 Who's arguing? I'm stating facts. My product base is made with LYE!! So is ALL MP base! That is what you seem to be forgetting here! It IS pretty durn black and white I'd say! And your 'particular list' is NOT a cosmetic unless it meets all of the criteria to be one, which unless it is being sold as a moisturizer or beautifier it does not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlycoat2 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I am by no means an expert but I do enjoy mp and other mediums in B&B. I enjoy as I have said pushing it to its boundaries.Without meaning to inflame any feelings the original poster doesn't mention that she is labelling or selling this item and in fact is honest enough to say it is only her 2nd batch.:smiley2: I use SFIC as I live in Australia and cant use Catalina's unless I ship it here myself. The SFIC cp like low sweat white base that I use takes a good many additives before it gives up and says "enough". I make mp because I enjoy it. I am not interested at this stage in labelling requirements, but I am interested in making a good quality product. I have been making this type of mp for quite a few years now, before the low sweat base was made. I just switched due to the fact that we have a lot of humidity not because I wanted to make it more like cp but because a base became available that would make my life easier.Dogmom1 I add 1/4 cup beeswax to each and every batch. I counter balance that with other additives as well. You will find lots of suggestions in the fantastic thread that is currently in this forum. Each person likes different types of additives and the feelings that can be achieved as a result in mp soap. Some like cp others like mp. Sometimes some individuals to both, sometimes not.This topic was merely a question of what went wrong and I still say that for the soap to be bendy too much of one additive was added or not enough balancing additives. Its all an experiment that should be fun and produce something you are proud of and can enjoy.Mp is quite an artistic medium both for its ability to be used in many ways and also its ability to accept additives. It is merely a question of which additives that you personally like.PA is well respected for her use of additives and I seek to emulate her mp ability. People genuinely rave about her mp soaps. However, when someone genuinely at this early stage in her mp learning curve asks for help I will try hard to offer my advice as have others here.Some people just try things for the sake of enjoyment and learning, they don't necessarily want to sell their items and as such are not really interested in label ingredients or appeal. Looking down the track that may well all change for dogmom1 when she finds "her" perfect recipe for mp. However at this stage the question was "what had gone wrong". I would be interested to hear what any other mp soapers thought about what the possible causes for this bendy soap could be. Dogmom1 in the interests of helping you formulate your own recipe I want to be completely transparent about my recipe per 2lbs of mp low sweat cp base I add each and every time:1/4 cup beeswaxbutter (any you like I like mango)jojoba, or avocado or macadamia or apricot or emu or whatever oil you likegreen tea or nettle extractgoats milk powdersilk powderglycerin - EO's or FO'sClay or colorant of your choicebotannicals if you want, glitter if you wantI dont label these ingredients as I dont sell but to use PA"s words"I too would hold a bar of my MP soap up to a bar of anyone else's CP soap with no hesitation."PA any comments on my recipe would be gratefully accepted I would love to know what you think.Jocurlycoat2melbourne, australia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairieannie Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Hiya curlycoat! I think your recipe sounds just wonderful! Wish I could try a bar of that!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curlycoat2 Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 Thank you PA, I hope one day to be able to try one of yours!I have learnt such a lot about additives and I think its great that we can all share with each other, and enable people to experience not just mp but "MP" as you and I both know it.Thank you for your knowledge Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmom1 Posted February 21, 2009 Author Share Posted February 21, 2009 hi everyone,jo, you're right, i never mentioned selling my soap, tho somewhere down the line i might consider it. i was just experimenting and adding things to see what would happen and then asked for feedback when i was kinda surprised at the results. i've made some more, left out the beeswax altogether to try for a not quite so hard bar of soap, and put in more shea and left out the mango. i cut back on the olive oil and cut out the coconut oil. i also used just castor oil, next time i'll try just glycerin, just to see what happens. can you believe, it's still pretty darn hard! i must say the EBC natural soap by itself is pretty nice, and i certainly didn't NEED to add that other stuff, i am doing this for FUN. i have a very stressful job and get on the forum to read, learn and RELAX. thanx for your recipe info jo, i really appreciate it, and PA, it goes without saying that i am grateful for all i've learned from you!i have to be in work tomorrow at 6am, but i see a test batch of M&P in my immediate future!!!!! like as soon as i finish my coffee....take care all,ei Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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