What can cause this?

[cybersix]

Hi all, I'm just starting out with soy.

I'm using a soy with a 136 MP, don't know more about it.

I poured few candles and they looked fine, but the three you can see in the pics are really having some problem.

The tops were perfect so nothing made suspect about holes and air pockets. I poured the three candles at the same time, when the wax was really slushy, about 100 F. Didn't heat glass. Didn't cover.

I'll repeat my experiments (and I was thinking to try a sort of "tempering") but is this due to a pouring temp problem?

Any suggestion really appreciated!

[Rachael]

From what I can see you got a good melt pool , as for the appearance that is generally what soy looks like after it burns unless you mix it with some other type of wax some use Beeswax .

HTH

[islandgirl]

From what I can see you got a good melt pool , as for the appearance that is generally what soy looks like after it burns unless you mix it with some other type of wax some use Beeswax .

HTH

Have to agree.. You can expect that from soy candles...

[Stella1952]

If that is a "pure soy", you may need to try some additives such as stearic acid or Universal Soy Additive. Some folks also use a bit of beeswax or palm wax, too. Still others use a bit of Crisco or cottonseed oil or coconut oil. While "pure" soy wax has some undesirable characteristics, it can be made to perform more reliably by using additives. Tempering should help the appearance and texture of the wax.

You will have to "play" with it to see what works best for your environment and the particular wax you are using.

[cybersix]

:lipsrseal

I hope there's a way to have better looking candles LOL!!

My customer wouldn't agree with this look!!

[Stella1952]

Sabrina, if you read back, you will see that many folks have appearance problems with soy. It is not an "easy" wax nor one that you'll master overnight. Until you can get your formula "tweaked," customers should not even be an issue.

[cybersix]

Stella, I was posting while you were doing it too.

The strange fact is that the others soy candles I poured didn't have that problem, they were fine from top to bottom.

Guess I have to pay a lot of attention to every variable involved.

I'll see what I can do without additives, first.

No big choice here, so I hope I can find a way to reduce these flaws.

I know I can't be a soy candlemaker in one night. It took me two years two become a paraffin candlemaker and paraffin IS easy.

Sigh!!!

[Sharon in KY]

:lipsrseal

I hope there's a way to have better looking candles LOL!!

My customer wouldn't agree with this look!!

I have been selling soy candles for 7+ years and have never had a customer complain about the look of the wax before or after a burn. Mine look like that most of the time, it will not affect the burn. I think you have a paraffin attitude and may never be able to make soy candles, or be satisfied with soy. Most paraffin candle makers are looking for a perfect looking, like paraffin, wax and it just won't happen. There will always be something...

[cybersix]

Sabrina, if you read back, you will see that many folks have appearance problems with soy. It is not an "easy" wax nor one that you'll master overnight. Until you can get your formula "tweaked," customers should not even be an issue.

ops I missed one point.

If that is the best I can have from an all soy candles it wouldn't be something I can present to customers.

I'm working (testing) to produce a customized line of candles on request. There will be some months of testing then MAYBE the customer will accept the candles, if they will be satisfied. Sure it's not a good looking candle!!

[SatinDucky]

Keep in mind that I know very little about soy so I read more than anythng else here.

Just a question Sabrina... are you concerned with the messy tops or the "hidden" air pockets that you didn't know were there?

Does soy often form air pockets in containers?

[Stella1952]

Sabrina, I think that learning more about the wax you are using is in order. Some blends, like EcoSoya and NatureWax are far more "tamed" than straight soy. Parasoys also offer a more controlled result. NatureWax C3 does not have tops that look like yours after burning, although sometimes they can look a little rough depending on the temper of the wax and the environmental conditions. Usually, the tops are quite smooth after a burn.

Does soy often form air pockets in containers?

Yes - in the center around the wick. Not to the same extent as palm wax, but enough to be pretty annoying at times. Manipulating the rate at which the top cools helps a lot, depending upon the pour temp and the environmental temp.

While customers may not complain about ugly tops, many times we simply do not hear the complaints! It is not unreasonable to expect the appearance of veggie waxes to be consistent and attractive from top to bottom - it's simply a question of how one wants their candles to appear, what they are willing to settle for and how hard one is willing to work to achieve consistently attractive results...

Sabrina, is the soy wax you are using the only kind that is available to you?

[cybersix]

Just a question Sabrina... are you concerned with the messy tops or the "hidden" air pockets that you didn't know were there?

Hi SatinDucky, I'm concerned about every aspect of the candle.

If a messy top can become good with a bit of heat gun it's a minor concern. But the air pockets are a serious problem.

If this project will start I could have to produce 1000/2000 candles per year.

For someone it can be a small number but not for me. I work 5 days a week so most of my candle work is concentrated on weekends. I have the kitchen to work in, so my best bet would be a wax that's quick to work and doesn't require a lot of baby sitting. I need to find a method to have acceptable candles, I mean acceptable in the sense of what the wax permits to do. I know there are limits and I'm preparing the "maybe" customer to the differences between paraffin and vegetable waxes like soy. if you want a really good looking candle you should accept the presence of paraffin, this is what I think!

[cybersix]

Sabrina, I think that learning more about the wax you are using is in order. Some blends, like EcoSoya and NatureWax are far more "tamed" than straight soy. Parasoys also offer a more controlled result. NatureWax C3 does not have tops that look like yours after burning, although sometimes they can look a little rough depending on the temper of the wax and the environmental conditions. Usually, the tops are quite smooth after a burn.

Yes - in the center around the wick. Not to the same extent as palm wax, but enough to be pretty annoying at times. Manipulating the rate at which the top cools helps a lot, depending upon the pour temp and the environmental temp.

While customers may not complain about ugly tops, many times we simply do not hear the complaints! It is not unreasonable to expect the appearance of veggie waxes to be consistent and attractive from top to bottom - it's simply a question of how one wants their candles to appear, what they are willing to settle for and how hard one is willing to work to achieve consistently attractive results...

Sabrina, is the soy wax you are using the only kind that is available to you?

Stella, I had a so hard time finding this supplier that I can't even think of another source!

I think it's imported from your country but they won't tell me what wax is, so I can hardly compare to what I read here. I'm reading a lot, trying to grasp everything I think it can be useful.

Sure I need to learn all that I can about my wax, this is something I'm really picky about. It took me two years before deciding to enter in business with my paraffin candles, I'm not one of those people who thinks I can do it in a short time.

One thing I don't lack of is patience.

I think I can make a good candle, with lot of work. One thing I'd like would be to keep it simple.

The customer is oriented to all soy, they are slave of this all natural hype, well the style responsible is, his co worker is more reasonable but they want a soy line.

PHEEEWWWWW ok time to move my big a*** and doing something useful!!!

thanks to all of you, I'll be back often here in the veggie section!!

[Sharon in KY]

Hi SatinDucky, I'm concerned about every aspect of the candle.

If a messy top can become good with a bit of heat gun it's a minor concern. But the air pockets are a serious problem.

If this project will start I could have to produce 1000/2000 candles per year.

For someone it can be a small number but not for me. I work 5 days a week so most of my candle work is concentrated on weekends. I have the kitchen to work in, so my best bet would be a wax that's quick to work and doesn't require a lot of baby sitting. I need to find a method to have acceptable candles, I mean acceptable in the sense of what the wax permits to do. I know there are limits and I'm preparing the "maybe" customer to the differences between paraffin and vegetable waxes like soy. if you want a really good looking candle you should accept the presence of paraffin, this is what I think!

The "air pockets" shown on the top of your candles are not really air pockets. It's just the way it cools when poured hot or cools after burning. If you pour cool about 110* you should not get air pockets. I never check temp. but I do wait till it cools, I always poke for air pockets and do repours. From the look of your tops I'd say you have a GF415 type of wax but even GF435 soy with cotton seed looks like that. I say pour cool, check for real air pockets, do a topping off/repour and heat gun top for a smooth look. Then test the burn and throw not how it looks when it sets back up.

[TheQueen]

That's just one of the vagaries of soy wax, I'm afraid. And, quite frankly, I like it that way. I have never had a complaint about the way the candles look before or after burning. I explain up front that soy wax has a mind of its own and the less-than-perfect top (and there's almost ALWAYS some imperfection on the top) in no way affects the lovely scent or the way it burns. It would appear that my customers at least are more interested in the fragrance than the actual appearance of the candle top. Just my never-to-be-humble opinion.

[Stella1952]

Sabrina, I'm 100% with you on trying to make the best candles you can and not accepting less. If others working with solid veggie oils didn't have similar standards, we'd be eating margarine that was grainy and lumpy instead of smooth, spreadable material. Much of the knowledge of oleochemistry that has worked so well for the food industry can be applied to veggie oil based waxes. They are NOT very different!

Whether people buy all the "all natural" soy hype or not, most can appreciate its creamy, smooth texture and slow-burning characteristics that make it so outstanding for use in container candles. I agree that yours appears to be something akin to the Golden Brands products. Check out what Jason of Golden Brands suggested about tempering GW 464...

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?p=197532post197532

Good luck with your testing! I think you'll develop a good product in short order because you are so dedicated to your craft.

[cybersix]

thanks for the suggestions. I melted some lbs yesterday. let it the pot, so this evening I'll pour some containers.

You never cease to amaze me, how can you say that is a GoldenBrand wax from only one picture??

I'd love to know what I'm using, but I'm blind.

[ubure]

Hi Sabrina,

if you don't want to switch to Ecosoya CB-Advanced, which is quite nice, but also quite hard to get a good throw from it (in the beginning), I really suggest you use a bit of bees wax.

I know what your customers expect - I have the same kinds and one of them really told me he doesn't care if I use soy or paraffin as long as the top is ALWAYS smooth:rolleyes2.

Heat guns are good, but not an option I really like for my tops - an "originally" poured surface is always looking better IMO.

I have tried about 10-20% of olive oil for my palm (you know it) and the tops got really fine with it. You should have plenty of olive oil in Italy:laugh2:!

It'll be alright in the end, you'll see!

[kimmeroo]

Hi Sabrina!

I know your frustration! I started out 8 yrs. ago w/ paraffin...then my customers wanted soy! WOW! I didn't know what I was up against! Soy is a good wax it is just hard to tame,it is a wax that doesn't want to be tamed! LOL! If your wax is Golden Brands then it is probably 415...which I used to use! Can't beat the throw..but the tops are a NEVER ending BATTLE.I had some palm wax (pellets) on hand so I used to sprinkle some of those on the tops to cover the uglyness.Or if you can w/ the same wax whip it and put on the tops...would hide alot and be less frustrating about trying to fix them...that wax is going to be a challenge.Personally, I think the manufacturer's mess w/ them..it seems every batch(case) is different...????? If that is the case..we will never Tame the Beast!

Good Luck....Kimmeroo

[cybersix]

Hi Kimmeroo and Ubure, thanks for chiming in.

The real problem are not the tops: the tops were beautiful, no minimal sign of an underlaying collapse, not a single tiny crack, nothing.

These are after the first burn.

I call those holes because they really seem holes. I don't have the candles with me, it's the customer who burned them, so really I don't know how they burn candles. Because in another pic I have I can see a tortured wick (not clean cut).

These "holes" or flaws are new to me. I burned a little container I made in soy, and everytime I blew it off and cooled the top was always perfect.

Anyway it's to early to panic.

I'll try with one single suggestion at a time. And see. And take notes. And pics.

Thanks a lot!!

ps: Inez yes we do have lots of oilve oil. Never imagined I could use it in candles!!

[ubure]

Sabrina,

you can use olive oil, trust me. Not too much of it, only 10-20% as I said before, but it also gives such a nice colour and the tops stay flat after burning. Bees wax however is the best solution or a mix of these or bees wax and USA or the three, whatever you want and whatever you have at hand. They will make the tops much better but of course it can occur that some little plops will come up.

Yes, you are right: it depends on the customer and how he burns his candle. Whatever I tell people there are always some you literally torture the candles. Of course they don't have to read the warning sticker as well.

[cybersix]

Sabrina,

you can use olive oil, trust me. Not too much of it, only 10-20% as I said before, but it also gives such a nice colour and the tops stay flat after burning. Bees wax however is the best solution or a mix of these or bees wax and USA or the three, whatever you want and whatever you have at hand. They will make the tops much better but of course it can occur that some little plops will come up.

Yes, you are right: it depends on the customer and how he burns his candle. Whatever I tell people there are always some you literally torture the candles. Of course they don't have to read the warning sticker as well.

LOL I don't have anything at hand, as usual!!!! Only olive oil!!!

Will try without additives first, playing with temps, then will see.

Thanks again!

[ubure]

You still have plenty of time, right? When do they want to see some samples next?

[Stella1952]

You never cease to amaze me, how can you say that is a GoldenBrand wax from only one picture??

That is a GUESS - the appearance of your candles leads me to think it's a "pure soy" type of wax with no additives...

Have fun testing!

[cybersix]

You still have plenty of time, right? When do they want to see some samples next?

Inez, at this point I don't even know if I'll get the job.

They don't understand what we have to do. I asked for containers and FOs to start testing, but they focused on the three candles there are in the pic and didn't reply to my last email.

Who knows. I always repeat that a good candle doesn't born on the first try, too many variables to verify. But people don't understand.