Problems with Palm Starburst Wax

[brempel]

Hi Everyone, I am making pillars out of palm/starbusrt wax from candlescience. I am having a real problem with holes as it cools. The first batch was great. This is a one pour wax. Now the last few pillars form a crust and then several holes appear. What am i doing wrong? It is heated to '200 and then poured at 85-95. I have e-mailed candlescience. No reply yet. Hope some one has some ideas!

br:undecided

[cybersix]

well, palm waxes are never one pour waxes.

in pillars (I don't do containers yet) you have to poke holes like you'd do in paraffin pillars.

big holes are what I poke, I literally break the whole surface that is cooling and keep on doing that until the candle is cool.

Then refill, then level.

I found big caves in my palm pillars from the first day I started to use this wax. it's "virtually" one pour. I don't even now why they say that, I used CW, nuscents, and palm waxes coming from australia... all behaves in the same way.

It takes patience!!

[patka]

You absolutely have to do air trap relief work to prevent caves in your starburst pillars. I also push down the middle of the candle several times until it is just slightly warm. I learned this from Stella. At the end, I poke about 4 pretty wide holes with metal skewers and refill with wax at 200 degrees with. After that, I poke the holes that I have just refilled with the metal skewer and I still see many bubbles coming up, so that part of poking the filled holes is a must for me. I recently poured a pillar and the pattern did not come up as I had expected so I decided to re-melt. Before that I thought to use it for an experiment and I disected the entire candle. It was a 3 x 6.5 pillar and I did not find a single hole in it, so this method must be working .

[grama]

Ditto to what patka said. I have found that I like working with the feather palm better than the starburst. It seems to have less air pockets are whatever.

[Stella1952]

brempel, as you have discovered, palm wax is like no other!

I have never used a "one-pour" palm wax and folks should avoid using that term because it is SOOOOO misleading.

As others have pointed out, air trapping is a characteristic of palm wax and you must keep disturbing the surface of the wax as it is cooling (not afterward) to release air bubbles which have formed and to allow the liquid wax to fill any caverns inside.

Cut one of your first palm wax candles in half lengthwise and you will see the voids that form during cooling. They are generally located around the wick or wick pin and outward about 1-2". This is a big problem because as the candle is burned, when the heat encounters one of these cavities, the melt pool will drain into it, exposing too much wick and causing the flame to flare suddenly. The holes that you can see from the outside of the candle are bad, but the hidden ones are worse because they cannot be detected easily! Pressing does reveal some, but of course, the candle is ruined by that process.:undecided

It's important to handle the air trap relief work while the candle is cooling and still liquid in the middle. Palm wax has a VERY short period of time between its liquid and solid state - it's pretty much one or the other. Because of this, NEVER use a second pour to attempt to fill cavities deep in the candle. Unless you make a large bore hole (skinny little skewers do NOT get it!!), the wax will solidify long before it reaches its destination and fills the cavity. Palm wax doesn't generally respond to a heat gun the same way that paraffin and other waxes do because of this.

Here's a photo of the bottom of a pillar (and votive next to it) after reliving air traps during cooling...

As you can see, I cut a rough circle around the wickpin to ~ 1/2" of the sides of the candle; then I poked my knife as far down into the middle areas of the candle as the hardening wax would allow. This breaks up any "caverns" as they are forming. I repeat this process several times during the cooling, depending on the height/diameter of the candle. Votives get less, big tall candles get more.

Looks pretty rough when the candle has cooled, but remember you are looking at what will be the BOTTOM of the candle. I smooth off the big lumps, install a wick and smooth the rest when I level the candle. This is a finished votive bottom...

For containers and molded candles where the top IS the top, a second pour will usually be needed to conceal the mess. If you are careful and leave the sides a little taller than the middle, you will have a nice depression into which your second pour will flow without making an apparent line. HTH

Did you get a good starburst pattern on your candle?

[cybersix]

Stella,

I am fascinated by the way your pillars look after breking and poking the surface, because mine are different: I actually see the holes running down the pillars, the wax I break never fills the holes if this makes sense. So I end with a bottom like yours (:embarasse ) but with holes also. This is why I repour. I try to heat the wax a lot so it can run everywhere.

In short I never have a "closed" bottom like that!

[Stella1952]

Not sure I understand, Sabrina. If you mean the "lumpy" appearance, the photo shows the cooled candle after poking while the candle was still liquid, thus the lumps and depression. I use a sharp-pointed knife and cut the solidified wax in a circle about 1/2" from the outside edge, then I push the circle down into the candle, and plunge my knife down into the center area of the candle to break up any cavities that are forming - I don't just make a few holes - I literally destroy the center portion of the candle. The only hole you see is at the end is where the wick pin has been removed. I repeat this process at intervals until the candle has set up to the point that there is little liquid wax left. Each time, because the candle is cooling from the bottom up, the area I am messing up becomes shallower and closer to the surface. Usually the last time leaves lumps because the wax is getting much cooler and there is less liquid wax. Although at this point, the bottom looks like a fright, I don't see a need to repour because I have to level the bottom anyway after I insert the wick. I scrape away the most extreme "lumps" under the wick tab (which is slightly inset to keep the tab from poking out too far when the candle is leveled), insert the wick, then run the bottom over a hot surface to level the pillar.

Repouring is an additive process; what I do is a subtractive process. Lumps are melted off during leveling, so I may lose a fraction of an ounce of wax from what I originally poured into the mold. The second photo shows that after wicking and leveling, the bottom is smooth and the wicktab is embedded by a thin layer of wax.

While a repour will fill the surface, the candle itself is much cooler, so the wax solidifies before it can penetrate down into the depths. This is why I do the relief work as the candle is setting up rather than afterward. Better to prevent the air pockets from forming than to try to fill them after the candle has cooled.

One of these days, I will take a series of shots showing the entire process... I never have enough sense to take photos AS I am doing something because I am so focused on dong what I have to do and returning the candle to its warm environment to continue cooling.

I hope this makes sense...

[cybersix]

Stella sorry I'll try to explain myself better!

I do as you do, when the surface starts to become solid I break it as you do. I use wooden skewers, break all the surface, push down the solid wax and go down and round the candle, trying to break every spot that I feel is hardening.. well, in my pillars there are holes, provoked by me scavenging in the candle if this makes sense, while in yours I don't see any open holes.

I'd be happy if mine could be like yours, but I need to refill with hot wax. In yours it seems that wax while hardening and you moving it has filled every cavity by itself. But in mine I have caves, so I cannot level as you do, I need to refill then level.

UGH I don't know if you can understand!! I should take some pic too!!

[Stella1952]

UGH I don't know if you can understand!! I should take some pic too!!

Good idea! Since the palm wax cavern issue comes up so frequently during discussion, maybe those of us who wrestle with this stuff should take some step-by-step photos of what we do. Bumping that up on my to-do list the next time I pour palm pillars.

[patka]

Stella, I agree with Cybersix. I do the relief work as you describe, but when I pour into the disturbed surface once it cools to just slightly warm and poke, there is more air coming out where the wax goes into some holes that may have been created during my digging into the candle before. So at the end of the relief work, I purposely make about 4 holes, and they are wide enough for the hot wax to make its way all the way down into the candle. And then, I start poking and as I poke, more air comes out, so I know there were some holes left. When I do the relief work like this, my candles have no holes, and I did check by cutting them open. If I just finished them off at the bottom, I am sure there would still be air. I hope that makes sense.

[Circle]

What about using a heatgun and completely liquifying the whole top surface again? I have no experience with palm, but surely this should work, especially in a container?

[Stella1952]

Circle, good idea but palm wax is NOT like paraffin or soy... You gotta try some just for the experience, as it's hard to fully describe! It's strange stuff! If you liquified the top (bottom) of a pillar, it had better be in a mold 'cause when palm wax melts, it is very "watery" ... it doesn't ooze like paraffin or soy - it's either liquid and runny or solid and hard with very little molten state in between. If you liquify the top of one in the mold, the liquid wax will run down between the candle and the mold wall. The crystal pattern of the remelted wax and the rest of the candle will not match. The remelt will have a denser, finer crystal structure. Palm wax frequently has a larger, looser crystal structure than soy or paraffin waxes, which are composed of much tinier crystals.

Patka, I agree - ya gotta get rid of the air or there's gonna be trouble. I started out poking holes as y'all are doing and repouring, but I still found holes sometimes that I had missed or which had not been filled by the repour. So nowadays, I don't just smooth the bottom and I don't just poke holes. I wreck that entire center area.

Sabrina, you said you don't see any "poking holes" in the bottom of my pillar like you see in yours. That's because there is one BIG relief hole, not several little ones.

See the shaded pink circle - about 1/2" in from the sides all the way around? That's my relief hole. I cut out that same area over and over again until there is no more liquid interior. Air pockets don't stand a chance. :highfive:

[patka]

I have found that I like working with the feather palm better than the starburst. It seems to have less air pockets are whatever.

Grama, what wicks are you using in your feather palm pillars? I have been using CSN 14 with my feather or starburst pillars (or a mix of those) and I find that I have a lot of wax left when the candle is done. I am reluctant to try CSN 16, as I don't want the candles to burn too fast either. I thought I would check what others are using too.

[grama]

Patka - with most of them I use the csn 12. I like for it to burn leaving a shell. There are a few scents that I go up to a 14 on though. This is the 3" pillar. I really want to try the cd on them though but haven't had a chance to. I tried using the cd's on a couple of jars made with the frost wax and really liked them.

How much fo are you using? I just use 1 oz pp.

[patka]

Grama, I use no FO at all! I have two kinds, one white, uncolored, one colored with oil soluble annatto vegetable color (that is the only color I could find that is natural and works beautifully with candles). They burn well, but I get about a 2-3 inch wall left once they are done burning. Maybe that is the best I could do without them breaking out. I can try CSN12 and see how they look with the wall, it may look nicer if the whole wall is left. I have some CDs here, I may try those. I think I have a 12 and a 14.

[Stella1952]

Patka, I am confused...

but I get about a 2-3 inch wall left

... what diameter are your pillars if they are leaving a 2-3" wall? *faint*

[patka]

Stella, oops, that must be my English (English is my second language..). My candles are regular 3 inch pillars. I meant to say the walls stay 2-3 inches high, not wide! So to be more specific, when I start burning my candle, let's say it is a 3x4.5, with a CSN 14, for the first few burns, the candle will burn down, the wall will remain intact. As the candle continues to burn, the walls will start melting some, but there will still be a wall left when the candle is finished, not the original 4.5, but perhaps 2-3 inches high. I was thinking maybe there was some way to have the candle consume all of the wax, but maybe that is unrealistic.

I also like the idea to wick the candle even less to leave the entire wall intact, I think that could be pretty. I just need to figure out some way to twist the wick to get a really nice circle while the candle is burning down.

[grama]

Not Stella but I was wondering also! Patka palm is not a self comsuming wax like paraffin is. It will leave a wall. Now it will usually gradually melt some I guess is the correct way to describe it as it burns down but mine always leave a thin shell wall and it's not a uniform wall either. Some people like to leave a nice wall and then use tea lights in them because the flame is very pretty as it burns inside the walls. Does this help?

[Stella1952]

ROTFLMAO, Patka!! I realized after rereading that you just COULDN'T mean what was in my mind!! Nothing wrong with your english - it was my thick head!!

I wick my 3" pillars to leave a ~3/8" shell. Twisting the wick does help and it doesn't have to be much... When I finish the bottoms of my pillars, the wick tab is encased in a thin layer of wax, so that helps hold that end firmly. I hold the wick and spin the candle. Most of it releases, but enough "twist" is left to do the trick. I suppose one could hit the top with a heat gun to melt a little wax to secure the wick, but I haven't found that to be necessary. I usually get into more trouble with heat guns than I had to begin with, so I avoid using them.:whistle: I would rather turn the candle and recenter the wick to accommodate an off-center melt pool.

I generally use CDN 14s for 3" pillars which has worked out well for the vast majority of the FOs we use.

Here's a photo of a 3" x 6" pillar I was burning out...

it has kept its entire height. It had gotten a little off-center during the night, but I turned it and ended up with a pretty even shell. When it gets down to about 2" from the bottom (or I see the top part showing signs of deforming or cracking), I pull the wick and then use a tealight after that for continued enjoyment. HTH

[patka]

Stella, that is a nice shell you have left after burning your candle. I have not had mine burn with a pretty circle like yours, but I have not tried to twist my wicks yet in a pillar. I will try that next time. Thanks for posting your pictures.

[Circle]

Stella, you have a lovely burn and candle shell there!!. I'll try palm, but how on earth to make more that 1 at a time and how long does it take you to make 1!!! I am not sure I would have the patience.

[littlebrownbug]

"It is heated to '200 and then poured at 85-95."

I hope this is a typo, but just in case it isn't, (I haven't seen it addressed yet)I will continue with my observation. Palm wax is great when heated to 200 degrees but is even better if you pour it at 185-195 degrees instead of 85-95 degrees. I would believe that would be the case (crusting)with some soy waxes perhaps but never with palm wax at the correct pouring temperature. I have never experienced crusting with any palm products with a pouring temp. of 185-195 degrees. I have had some crusting with soy waxes when pouring that low but never with palm at 185-195. Anyway....this is just my observation. :lipsrseal

Mike

[Stella1952]

Ya know, it sounds like a lot when it's written, but when you are making several at a time, it actually goes easy - just a production line. Like many things, once you figure out what to do and when to do it and in what order, you've got it licked, even when making layers or tilty pillars. The more you make, the easier it becomes. I made a list of my basic steps at first and still do if I am making a lot at once that are more complicated. I am always taking notes as I go along, even when I don't have a list. I made a form for myself that causes me to fill out basics like temps, colors, FOs, the particular "recipe" I am using, etc. to review later in case I forget something or something goes haywire. The form helps keep me straight, otherwise I would be walking in circles wondering what I was going to do next...

When I pour pillars, I try to gang several projects, so I am making at least 7-14 lbs. worth of stuff at once. It takes a few hours to melt & pour & cool. If I am organized when I begin, it goes very smoothly. If not, then it takes longer while I futz around looking for molds, wiping things out, etc. Just like setting up for a surgery, if everything you need is right there and everything else is out of the way, it flows well.

[tjaramillo]

Stella, hi! I'm new at making palm wax pillars and I too, have encountered these craters using Robnat "one pour" palm wax. I have a question - how many times do you cut that relief hole throughout the cooling process? And, at point do you begin to do so? How long do you wait to start?

I was quite frustrated with these holes - I began noticing it when I was leveling off my candles and I just poured wax on top, but I don't know if I got all of the spots.

Also, when you level your candles, do you actually use a level?

Thanks so much for all of the great information!

[Stella1952]

how many times do you cut that relief hole throughout the cooling process? And, at point do you begin to do so? How long do you wait to start?

When the top has about 1/8" - 1/4" thickness of wax, I cut and poke the hardened wax way down into the liquid center. Then when another 1/4" top forms, I do it again, etc. Each time, as the sides harden and gain thickness, the hole cut will be smaller and ya can't poke it down as far into the pillar. How many times depends on the height and diameter of the pillar.

To level, I bought a little torpedo level (maybe 6" long) that I hold on top of the candle as I pass the bottom on a preheated old electric frying pan (gotta be sure to level that first). You can pretty much eyeball which part is the highest, then use the level for fine tuning... There was an earlier thread about this where Satin Ducky shared a really easy way she uses...

ahhh, here it is (search and ye shall find!):

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=70382&highlight=leveling+pillars