Certified Organic Wax

[NattyCat]

OK,

I don't want this thread to turn ugly - so please refrain from the whole organic/soy debate if you can't actually answer my question!

Over here in the UK we have an organisation called "The Soil Association" and every product endorsed by this organisation is certified organic. I have been asked to look into creating a candle that is organic, but to do this I would need to source CERTIFED organic wax. Are there any manufacturers who provide certified organic soy wax?

I'm not looking for someone who just "says" their wax is organic just because it's soy, it has to have fully backed up documentation.

Also - and this is a long shot - is there such a thing as an organic wick? or a wick made from organic cotton?

Thanks

Nat

[Shannon WY]

Swans is the only place I've seen claim to have certified organic wax- here's the link-

http://swans-candle-supplies.com/store/natural_wax.htm

[candlebug]

I would think you would have to use EOs to say it would be an organic candle, which could be expensive to make, as FO is a chemical compound and would not make the qualifications for organic.

[ubure]

I'm having the same problem, Nat. In the end it's the same company asking for this organic candle:spit:...no, would not be so funny, I guess.

I also have this Accu Blend Veggie Wax in mind - guess I will order a sample.

Regarding the organic wicks I haven't found anythng so far.

[Stella1952]

I would think you would have to use EOs to say it would be an organic candle, which could be expensive to make, as FO is a chemical compound and would not make the qualifications for organic.

The plants used to manufacture EOs are mostly NOT grown by organic methods; those that are would be fabulously expensive. In fact, unless someone actually grows the soybeans used to make the oil that is hydrogenated to make the soy wax (a not really organic process in and of itself), there is no way a supplier can certify that their product it indeed organic. Many will make claims, but there is simply no sure way to be SURE they are not prevaricating to take advantage of people. Nearly 100% of soybeans are GMO, BTW. If a company certifies that their soy wax is non-GMO, I would be extremely skeptical of their assertion.

NattyCat, I have answered your question in another thread which you can find by searching - seems like it was toward the end after we had slugged it out on this HOT topic.

While I applaud your intentions, the reality is that there IS NO SUCH THING as a 100% organic candle and unless someone is actually manufacturing their ingredients themselves, there is NO WAY they can make that assertion to you. The organic movement is way too important to allow it to be misnomered.

[NattyCat]

as I said, I didn't want to get into the ins and out of what is and isn't an organic candle, there is no need to applaude MY intentions - I am merely doing some research for wholesale account that could possibly be extremely HUGE for me.

I asked if there was anyone out there that was claiming to produce a certified organic wax and so far I have just the one, which is accu wax. I have emailed them and asked to see their certification. IF their certification proves to be genuine, and by a reputable governing body such as the soil association or whatever the American equivelent is, then that is, as far as I'm concerned, good enough and as close to organic as any candle is going to get.

I think you'll find that ANY product certified organic has to reach a minimum of 70% organic ingredients, whether it be food, cleaning products, body care products or whatever - and this allows for the fact that there ARE processes in product manufacture that can not be organic. It is physically impossible to have something 100% organic unless you were around at the time of the earth's creation and can trace every single activity that ever went on in the patch of earth that you are growing your organic produce in. Mass manufacture requires machinery, and the use of non-organic fuels etc, which is WHY the word ORGANIC means "70% organic" and not 100% organic.

I'm not asking for someone to assert to me that "oh yea, our stuff is organic" I am asking for a product that IS ALREADY certified. If a product is certified as organic by a reputable governing body, then it doesn't matter what you, me or the pope thinks "organic" means - it's organic, and that's that.

I know I need to use essential oils, and I have a supplier of 100% organic certifed essential oils - and yes, they cost an absolute fortune. I am also in the process of sourcing wick made from 100% organic cotton.

So yes, you CAN produce an organic candle, as long as every individual element you add is CERTIFIED organic by a reputable governing body and understand that nothing is EVER 100% organic.

[ubure]

Natty,

I completely agree what you are saying - but don't forget that things are not the same in the USA and Europe with ecological standards. Stella only wanted to help.

I don't agree HOW you are saying what you are saying. This is not only condescending but arrogant as well. We all know that you are quite successful lately - which is nice for you, no doubt -, but this "shut up- I have no time" attitude isn't very polite.

[patka]

Hi,

I just wanted to mention that this wax is, according to Swans, certified organic by NOP, a division of USDA, in my opinion it means that the plants were grown non-gmo, since genetically modified foods cannot be certified organic by the USDA standards.

Other than this wax, I believe all other brands that contain soywax use soybeans that have been genetically modified, including Ecosoya.

Their website states the wax is free from gmo material and pesticide. One could assume this means that the soybeans were grown without pesticide and were not genetically modified, but from the information I was able to find, I think it in fact means exactly just what it says: that the wax does not contain these, not that the vegetables were not grown that way, which sounds like a misleading advertising to me :rolleyes2

It is my understanding that all oil, including oil from gmo plants is gmo free simply because oil does not contain the genetic material that is required to detect the gmo material, I hope I got this one correct.

There is an interesting article on the website that explains this better: (here:http://nutiva.com/about/media/2006_11_12.php)

"Testing for GMO contamination entails detecting the tell-tale DNA evidence of known GMO contaminants. By nature, these tests will invariably fail when testing oils, fats, or waxes, because they contain no DNA or, indeed, no carbohydrates or proteins. All of that was filtered out when the soybeans were milled into oil as one product and meal as the other. So, claims that soy waxes contain no GM materials are just disingenuous, because it will be true even if the oil used to make the wax was made from 100% genetically modified soybeans"

[NattyCat]

Then perhaps you are reading it incorrectly ubure. I am in no way being arrogant. At the beginning of this thread I specifically asked that we didn't get involved in arguments regarding what does and does not make an "organic" candle, yet it seems that people went right ahead and tried to "teach" me as if I was born yesterday.

Look - I was not being rude to Stella, and I'm not being rude to you - If you read my reply again you will see that I was merely clarifying what "organic" meant and what would be acceptable to me as "organic". If you choose to read into it MORE than necessary, or choose to be offended by a post that was not mean to cause offence - then really that is a situation you need to deal with yourself.

And seeing as I don't actually post here very often now, whether my business is successful or not is not broadcast around this forum, I do not brag or talk about my accounts etc - I think I have just ONCE posted a picture of a candle I did for a wholesale customer - so I don't know where you get off implying that I have an attitude because I feel I'm more successful than others? I can assure you, there are people on this forum who are doing MUCH better than I am.

At the end of the day - opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and you're welcome to have yours just as much as everyone else.

[NattyCat]

in CASE anyone is interested, here is the reply i got from accuwax:

Dear Natasha,

Our all natural Organic Container Candle Blend #44 is made with 100% certified organic raw materials. Unfortunately our facility/manufacturing process are not yet certified organic. We are opening an other facility on May 1st & will begin the certification process then on our organic blends.

Regards,

Henry Shishido

General Manager

I have emailed him and asked him exactly what this means. Does it mean that all the individual ingredients are organic but the END product, ie the WAX is not organic or what.

[Stella1952]

I understand everyone's points of view. The non-GMO thing is hard to certify with soy, but as correctly stated, there is no genetic material in the oil after it is chemically extracted from the beans with hexane.

While I am not a "card-carrying" organic person, I have had respect for this industry since before there were any standards. The marketing industry has jumped on the environmental bandwagon and there is MUCH hype that denigrates the environmental, organic & "natural" products industries. While I am delighted for Natty's success and potential large account, it seems to me that integrity requires one to give a darn about the veracity of the assertions made, not what one can get away with, or uninvestigated claims by suppliers. I have this same problem with people who market their soy-based products as "all-natural," "environmentally friendly,"green" and other such terms. As we all know, people can call candles "soy" if they so much as contain any of the stuff - there is no regulation that requires them to be truthful about the AMOUNT of soy contained in their candles. The same holds true for organic products - simply because something contains some organic ingredients doesn't mean that the entire product could be considered or certified as organic, but if you label them as "contains organic ingredients," people ASSUME that it means the whole thing IS organic, which is not true. We see this all the time on cosmetic labeling - "all natural," "contains essential oils," etc. They are not lies - anything on the earth can be considered to be all-natural and if there is ANY amount, no matter how minute, of essential oil in a product, it DOES "contain" essential oils, but the real fragrance may be mostly derived from less expensive FOs and the customer is misled into thinking that the fragrance is coming from essential oils alone. These are simply descriptions intended to sucker buyers into thinking they are getting something that is "all that" and the simple truth is that they are NOT.

Personally, it won't matter to me one way or the other if people mislead customers, but I WILL say that I do not approve of that kind of "anything for a buck" approach. As I said before, I have too much respect for the people in the REAL organic industry to do so. Just my opinion...

Sorry I didn't follow your directions to the letter of your law, Natty, but I am not in the habit of allowing others to dictate the content of my responses beyond the limits of common civility and decorum. As I said previously, had you searched the forums, you would have found the two suppliers in the US who carry what is claimed to be "organic soy wax." I have personally mentioned them on more than one occasion, as have other posters. As for certified organic cotton or hemp wicks, I can't help you there, which is why I said nothing about those products.

Good luck.

[ubure]

Then perhaps you are reading it incorrectly ubure. I am in no way being arrogant. At the beginning of this thread I specifically asked that we didn't get involved in arguments regarding what does and does not make an "organic" candle, yet it seems that people went right ahead and tried to "teach" me as if I was born yesterday.

Look - I was not being rude to Stella, and I'm not being rude to you - If you read my reply again you will see that I was merely clarifying what "organic" meant and what would be acceptable to me as "organic". If you choose to read into it MORE than necessary, or choose to be offended by a post that was not mean to cause offence - then really that is a situation you need to deal with yourself.

And seeing as I don't actually post here very often now, whether my business is successful or not is not broadcast around this forum, I do not brag or talk about my accounts etc - I think I have just ONCE posted a picture of a candle I did for a wholesale customer - so I don't know where you get off implying that I have an attitude because I feel I'm more successful than others? I can assure you, there are people on this forum who are doing MUCH better than I am.

At the end of the day - opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one and you're welcome to have yours just as much as everyone else.

You seem so busy and snippy, the way you are writing... - and even if you don't see it - you are impolite. So un-English....:rolleyes2

Just my arsehole...er, opinion;)

BTW: I found my organic wax.

[ubure]

Stella,

Natty is right when she says if sth is certifed organic it is organic in the best sense of the word. Here in Europe we have strict regulations concerning organic products - in Germany alone we have several, the German Bio-Siegel, then the different assocations like demeter, Bioland etc. They are have something in common: the customer can be sure to get 100% organic. Each product has to be tested by special boards of control in order to be able to carry one of these labels.

[NattyCat]

I am actually agreeing with you Stella. I don't want a wax where the supplier merely "says" its organic when in fact their claims are worth less than the paper they are written on.

The fact that I am trying to find organic wax, that is 100% documented by a reputable governing body shows that I am not just trying to make a fast buck. IF I sell an organic candle, I want it to BE an organic candle and I am certainly NOT leaving things uninvestigated - hence the whole point of me starting this thread. I did search before I posted, but apart from Swan, who supply Accu wax, which we now know is NOT as organic as they have led us to believe, there are no other posts on organic wax suppliers that I saw. Perhaps I missed it.

In the UK, we have an organisation called the Soil Association. They are the leading authority on all things organic and they will not accept anything less than 100% accurate data on the origins of any ingredients - why is why I was looking for certified wax. The only way you can prove that a product is organic is by submitting it to the governing body of whatever country you happen to live in and they are the ones who will say if it's organic or not - not me, or you or even the wax suppliers.

It seems Accu Wax are not as organic as they claim to be, so it's back to the drawing board. It also seems I've pissed Ubure off enough that won't share the info she found, so I will continue to look for organic wax. If anyone can contribute by giving the name of a manufacturer who actually CAN supply organic wax and can PROVE it then I'm all ears.

[Stella1952]

I respect many European standards far more than American ones, ubure. Things are quite different here because of the basic lack of ethics that MANY US corporations have come to exhibit (they weren't so much that way always...). Here, regulations are for the most part lax with many loopholes which a corporation will exploit to the nth degree, whether their practices are in the best interest of people or not. :undecided

Natty these folks http://lumia.us/default.asp are the only ones I know of who say they manufacture organic soy wax. They may, in fact, supply Swan's for all I know. I didn't see any purchase info for wax on their site, but you could email them for more info. They sound sincere and legit but I don't know anything more about them than what is posted on their site...

I hope you find a supplier - although some folks think that "organic" pertains only to edible products, that's not the case. It pertains to how things are grown and processed, such as organic cotton and hemp for clothing, etc. If you do find any organic wicking etc. or get more info from the organic wax folks, please let me know what you've found as I would love to do business with folks like that.

[NattyCat]

Swan are getting their wax from www.accu-blend.com which, as I posted earlier, I'm in contact with.

It's because of the stringent standards that we have over here in Europe (we're not even allowed to sell soap that hasn't been tested and certified for EACH recipe) that I'm trying to find out this wax data.

If I cannot find certified organic wax, then it's simple - I won't make the candle and I advise the client that it's not possible. But they have asked me to research into organic wax, and that's what I'm doing. If there is no such thing, then i'll tell them so.

It would be foolish of me to lie to them and say something is organic if it isn't - because when they submit the candle to the Soil Association for certification, the Soil Association will come to me for all the documentation pertaining to every single ingredient, from the wick, the wax and the essential oil so I cannot find suppliers who can provide me with that documentation - then I don't buy product from that supplier. It's as simple as that.

And yes you are right, organic does NOT just pertain to food, it also includes clothing, textiles, wood products, bath and body items and hair care products.

[NattyCat]

by the way, i don't believe a word of it on that lumia website. They create their own certified organic soybeans for their own candle use? They can actually grow soybeans, process them and turn them into wax - but just enough for their own candles? They're the only company who do organic candles?

If that were the case I'm sure their set up would be a bit more professional - and where on the site does it give the certification info?

[ubure]

Natty,

maybe you have to change your way of searching. Normally, I am using palm fat and palm stearine. So I'm looking in Malaysia and Indonesia for possible suppliers (and there are some). I stopped looking in the USA - there is no such thing as a real organic wax (according to what you have found out). But there is organic coconut oil, there is organic palm fat, there are organic palm stearines.

You'll find some suppliers, I'm sure, if you are not fixated on soy.

I suppose your possible wholesale account is a European company - please excuse if I cannot tell my source, as I have a wholesale account with a European company as well, and as they are selling their products in Europe and USA/Canada they won't be eager to have too many big competitors around. Also, I'm not allowed to say anything, I had to sign a confidentiality agreement.

The above is the only hint I can give. Hope you understand.

[patka]

in CASE anyone is interested, here is the reply i got from accuwax:

Dear Natasha,

Our all natural Organic Container Candle Blend #44 is made with 100% certified organic raw materials. Unfortunately our facility/manufacturing process are not yet certified organic. We are opening an other facility on May 1st & will begin the certification process then on our organic blends.

Regards,

Henry Shishido

General Manager

I have emailed him and asked him exactly what this means. Does it mean that all the individual ingredients are organic but the END product, ie the WAX is not organic or what.

It looks like the plants that the oil was extracted from were grown organically, but the process of turn the oil into wax is not consistent with the organic standards. That is how I am reading it, maybe it is the hydrogenation? I believe organic standards don't accept hydrogenation, at least for foodstuffs.

I guess if someone was selling candles from their wax, they could say something like this: this candle was made with wax manufactured from 100% organically grown plants --- or something like that to be truthful, not to say "organic candle" or "organic wax"

[patka]

by the way, i don't believe a word of it on that lumia website. They create their own certified organic soybeans for their own candle use? They can actually grow soybeans, process them and turn them into wax - but just enough for their own candles? They're the only company who do organic candles?

If that were the case I'm sure their set up would be a bit more professional - and where on the site does it give the certification info?

I think it could be appropriate to ask them for documentation before assuming that they are not telling the truth. The guy from this company actually wrote the article I referenced above and he seems to be quite knowledeable and passionate about the organic issue. They should be able to provide some certification on request.

[NattyCat]

yes, they've just clarified it for me:

Hi Natasha,

You are correct. All of the ingredients we use are all 100% certified organic but since our facility/process are not certified, the finished blend is not "certified" organic.

We usually supply our customers the certification documents of the ingredients that we get from our suppliers & that is usually enough.

Regards,

Henry Shishido

General Manager

Ubure, the company I am dealing with is in the UK only. I am not fixated on soy - in fact I couldn't care less if it was paraffin, soy, palm or ear wax - as long as it was organic and I could get enough of it.

Nat

[Stella1952]

i don't believe a word of it on that lumia website. They create their own certified organic soybeans for their own candle use? They can actually grow soybeans, process them and turn them into wax - but just enough for their own candles? They're the only company who do organic candles?

On their site in the written text, I got the impression that they use certified organic soybean oil that is from non-GMO soybean plants to manufacture the wax they use for their candles. I didn't think that they grew the soybeans, but maybe they do - who knows! I found their site via the article below...

There is a little more information that can be gleaned from reading the owner's article at this link:

http://nutiva.com/about/media/2006_11_12.php

I Googled (again!:rolleyes2) for "organic soy wax" and found lots of folks claiming to sell organic soy candles, but only the link above gives a clue toward a manufacturer. As for all the ones advertising organic soy candles, I am thinking that many of these may be bogus, others may be parroting what has been told to them and is not 100% accurate. But SOME of these folks are probably the real thing, so they have to be getting their "organic soy wax" from somewhere... For all I know, the process may be simple enough to make the stuff in your basement with the right equipment!

Rather than wonder whether the people are hype or for real, why not email or telephone them and ask them your questions? It never hurts to go to the "horse's mouth" about stuff like this. Some people's websites are very straightforward and informative; others are not as impressive... I try not to judge a company by its web appearance, just as I try not to judge folks by their appearance. It's always worth a deeper look before dismissing... I'd rather deal with someone who has an awful website but has really good stuff than someone with a slick presentation and bogus products.

Now soy aside, here're a couple of links to palm wax manufacturers that might be able to help you or steer you toward an organic supplier...

http://www.lipidchem.com/our_products2.html

http://www.sumiasih.com/intro.htm

This is an organization of palm wax manufacturers that I found at CandleScience... perhaps some organic manufacturers could be located through them...

http://www.rspo.org/

HTH

[topofmurrayhill]

I suspect ubure has the best idea of what to look for. If there is something that will satisfy the Soil Association, it's probably not going to be made from soy oil, which has the troublesome quality of being a liquid. Search for producers of organic tropical oils. They have some useful solid fats and some of them that blend candle products.

[ubure]

Natty,

how much is "enough" wax? We are planning right now, so nothing is decided yet, but I guess I will order the wax in about 2-4 weeks or so. Maybe or probably even later.

If you are interested we could oder together if conditions are comparable.

Can you give me a time frame?

I have tested Lipidchems Wax - it is great! But they don't have a distributor here so you have to order 18 mt. Prices are good, but not too cheap.

Oh, they are not organic, but they are member of the RSPO which is very important for me and this customer of mine as well.

[Stella1952]

so you have to order 18 mt

...as in METRIC TONS? *faint*

Or does that mean MOUNTAINS?