I dipped my toes into HP Soap...again

[doris]

Ya know Doris, if you click on Southern Scent's name and read some of his post, you might get a clearer picture as to why we are all up in arm about this arrogant brat thinking he knows it all! Go ahead and read some of his posts. You'll back away from him too!

He can still hurt someone with the soap he's making but he won't care because he'll be moving onto the next idea for making milliuons of dollars!

Fire

Oh I've read his posts and fully understand and agree with why almost everyone is in full attack mode, I'm just pointing our that hp is considered "safe" immediately. As far as I know, however, it still needs to harden, and I also have issues with his selling his 3rd ever batch of soap.

[coco]

Ok… I got to jump in.

I seldom make HP, which is what SS says they did in the first post. Now, unless something changed, HP is supposedly ready for use as soon as it’s cut. I admit when I do HP I like to let it set a week before using it. It’s just nicer, but I have read many here who have said they sell their HP the day after it’s made. So why should SS have to let theirs cure?

Laundry soap? ok, not my idea of “hand made soap” but how many people buy lotion bases, add fragrance and sell it as home made? Is there a difference?

I do think you are moving a bit fast SS. However, I don’t have any problem with anyone “selling” their soaps as they learn to family and friends to cover the cost of supplies. This is a very expensive hobby and as long as the family and friends understand you are still new there shouldn’t be a problem. And at that price, well, that’s about all SS is getting.

On the subject of insurance, SS, I do hope you talk to your parents about it before you sell to the general public. Some people can be lawsuit crazy, and even if you make perfect soap they can claim it gave them a rash and sue you. They don’t need proof, of either a rash or that your soap caused it to file suit. Even if they loose you will be paying attorney and court costs. Homeowners insurance will usually cover any accidents that happen in the home, but I don’t believe any homeowners insurance will cover liability. It is, of course, up to you. I would hate to hear of you being hit by a frivolous lawsuit and your parent’s loosing everything because of it.

As for substandard product… who knows, maybe SS lucked onto a really great recipe right off. Or maybe it is only mediocre compared to other hand soap. Either way it is no doubt better than commercial soap. If it is only mediocre SS will no doubt figure that out, or fail at marketing them. This is simple, people who are drawn (in my experience) to hand made soap will be buying it from other sources as well, and will keep buying the better soap. If SS produces and sells a lye heavy batch then will be out of business and in debt fast no doubt. Making soap (and candles) is not rocket science. As long as people understand the risks with lye, it’s really no different than baking a cake from scratch. We start with someone else’s recipe and tweak and adjust to make it our own. With three batches I doubt SS has had much chance to do much tweaking, and with time will see the difference.

Personally I agree with CareBear about a young getting involved in soap and/or candles, or any other small business venture. I see far too many who sit and expect mom and dad to just keep buying them everything their little hearts can desire. My experience with young people is also… well… they don’t like to learn from other’s experience. The old joke about teenagers who think they know it all… reality. Most have to bang their heads against a wall for awhile before they figure out that someone with experience was right. In my experience it’s easiest to just wait til they get a headache and are ready to listen. No need to become derogatory or demeaning. And personally… when someone demeans me… I tend to ignore anything they have to say, even if I think they may be right about something.

Some of the posts in this thread bother me, a lot more than the idea of a young person potentially making a serious mistake, moving to fast. I have learned to love this board for the support and advice so many are willing to share. I hate to see posts that attack and demean someone. I do not argue anyone’s right to express their opinion, I am disappointed in how some choose to express it. It is simply not inline with my over all experience here. I think I will choose to ignore this thread from now on. I have no doubt there will be some who will take this personally and decide to “get even”. The really great thing about forums, so easy to ignore people you don’t like.

Thanks Grandma for the classy, realistic post. Regardless of how I feel about what SS is doing, I have been particularly disturbed lately by how demeaning people can be here. How about simply not responding if something enrages you to the point where you need to insult someone? Just a thought...

[doris]

GrandmaAriel,

He's been selling soap, lotions, candles, jams, jellies, air fresheners for ages now, and considers himself a supplier as well. And while I agree that people are a little sue-happy these days, no homeowners' insurance is going to cover him in case he is sued. You need business insurance of some sort to cover your products if you are selling, especailly to non-family/friends.

People have been giving him good advice since I think last January, which he always disregards and then jumps into some other outrageous scheme. If he is what he claims he is, he is a 16-year od boy going to school full time, with an after school job at a supermarket, while making (ahem, not quite, but I can't think of a more appropriate word) candles, soap, airfresheners, lotions, laundry soap, jams, jellies, t-shirts, etc etc etc and also acting as a supplier for other chandlers and other BB makers. To my mind there is something wrong there. If he is in fact genuine, then he is DEFINITELY going too fast.

As to using bases, there is still something, in my mind at least, different between using something sold as a base and using appropriate scents and additives, and ripping open a box of tide or whatever, adding fos, and repackaging as your own.

I hope I'm not coming across as ranting, because I'm not, I'm merely pointing out why people are so ready to jump down his throat. I think people are often too ready to turn something into a bitch-fest, but that's not the case here. I've followed his posts since they first started appearing, find them highly amusing, and fully understand why everyone gets mad at him.

[eugenia]

I am not going to get all sarcastic or tell you what to do. Instead I will speak of my experience.

Soap making is an art. As a soaper, you will get better with experience. I remember how very proud I was of my first soaps. Then I made more, and more, and more, and more still, LOL. Each batch kept getting better and better. After a while, I had several hundred bars of soap hanging around at any given time. I have a big family, lots of friends and co-workers but just how many showers can they take?

You choose your path, I'll choose mine. I know that my customers get a quality product and that the maker is quite familiar with her recipes and

what characteristics each oil brings to the party. I love making soap and each bar is a labor of love. My customers know that.

e

[GrandmaArial]

CareBear, I understand the concerns. I defiantly see that SS is jumping faster than looking. I am concerned… but attacking them for not curing HP? I have read several posts by experienced soapers when I first started reading these boards say they sell HP the next day. No one attacked them. So why use it as an excuse to attack SS? It looks to me as simply an excuse to attack.

I have a problem with the degrading remarks made not the concern expressed. If SS is just posting to stir the pot… then why respond? You’re giving them what they want. If they really are young and foolish… insulting them isn’t going to change anything, they obviously are going to do it their way. Insults are not communication, though I know many people who seem to get a sense of power and think they look witty when they insult someone. The ability to hurt others is a kind of power. Obviously it isn’t hurting SS, or they are hiding it well. So all it does it make the people posting here look… unpleasant.

You and I have butted heads a couple times. We were able to communicate; we didn’t need to get snide and demeaning. We still don’t agree on some things, mostly because I think we both realize neither of us can force the other to do it our way. So fine. It’s over and we can be civil to each other. I’m not pretending I’m perfect. Fairly often I have read a post, that even as a newbie I know is foolish and mutter something like “idiot” as I close the window. And yes, there was a thread where a person tried to insult me and I responded in kind. I don’t justify my response. I’m human and can act the fool like anyone else. But I know if I had read threads like this when I first came here I would have run away. It is simply not what I expect of this board.

If SS doesn’t want advice then none of us need offer it. If they are just playing head games to upset people we feed it by jumping (and a lot of control we give them, to let someone on a forum get us so upset, I’m not willing to hand that much control over to anyone). Ultimately no one can say anything that will force someone to do it their way.

Basically I am voicing my opinion on how some have responded here. I have tried to do it with out getting personal or demeaning. If I offend someone, well, sorry. Ok, not really. If someone is taking it personally then maybe you should look at your own behavior, because if you really feel justified in name calling then my opinion shouldn’t bother you.

In the time I’ve been trying to word my feelings on this there have been several responses… I am not complaining about people voicing concerns, but how a select few have chosen to voice those concerns. That is all. We all have a right to our opinions and to voice those opinions. That is how I feel… as this is not my board then it seems people also have a right to insult if they see fit. All I’m doing is voicing my opinion.

On the laundry soap, we each have our opinions on this, too. It is not something I would do; it just seemed to me that that particular opinion was expressed in a less that constructive way, but rather to make a joke out of someone. That is what bothers me and I apologize for not expressing myself better on that point. On that note we have a rather popular hand craft store here where I live, that sells what I know to be MP soap nicely scented and colored as "hand made thr old fashioned way" (implying it to be from scratch CP or HP soap, but reading the label it is easy to realize it has several synthetic ingredients, not the all vegetable product they are advertising). People do it. Can anyone stop them? I giggle every time I see someone buying it and so pleased thinking they just bought “real” soap. When I use MP I clearly label it as such. To not do so feels dishonest to me. I could stand there and scream and yell about it but what will it accomplish? People are going to do what they are going to do. And guess what? Some people I know who used to buy (some still do as guest soap, its very pretty) that soap buy my soap now for daily use. All they had to do was try a sample.

[coco]

He's been selling soap, lotions, candles, jams, jellies, air fresheners for ages now, and considers himself a supplier as well. And while I agree that people are a little sue-happy these days, no homeowners' insurance is going to cover him in case he is sued. You need business insurance of some sort to cover your products if you are selling, especailly to non-family/friends.

And my thought on this is :

HIS PROBLEM, NOT OURS.

He hasn't cared what anyone has said for a year now, so what's the point in arguing? I have to hand it to him if he is in fact a teenager, his responses to the attacks on his character are far more civil and mature than the adults that are replying. I don't know many teenagers who would react as calmly and politely as he does in the given situation. Again, I am by no means condoning what he is doing, I just don't get the major upset over it. It is HIS problem, ignore it and maybe it will go away.

[southern.scents]

How many times do I have to say that yes, I have done some stupid things and if you read all of the post and not just what you want to, you will see that I have apologized and learned lots from these hard lessons. I am not trying to upset anyone on this board. I have apologized and learned from my mistakes. YOU may have not had the luck I had, everyone starts off in different ways and with different experience. I feel that I owe part of my success in HP to Eugenia's recipe that I edited to add a little more castor oil and a little less lard, SO, if you wanna insult the recipe I am using and the soap I am making then you are in turn insulting E who from what I have seen is an amazing soap maker. I know that my past is bad but, I'm absolutley certain that EVERYONE on this board has made dumb mistakes before.

[CareBear]

Dumb mistakes? Oh please - I could write the book. But I'm old and gray now and looking back it's quite obvious to me that so many of them could have been avoided if only... And guess what - Many of them were lessons I should have learned a different way.

Anyway, I would be surprised if E would be thrilled to hear you sold your third batch. But then she's surprised me before. She does make amazing soap (and scrubs) though - she's the one who got ME hooked. I haven't had the benefit of trying her candles but I bet they are great too.

I am glad that you are showing maturity in learning from an expert and truly wish you the best. Frankly, though, I don't think we were challenging your recipe - it was the speed to market that makes us shudder and twitch. You've heard it before, about developing your product more thoroughly before selling - I won't lambaste you on that again - but please do think through the repercussions of selling too soon. Not only is it possible that there could have been problems with your batch, but you sold it before it was at it's peak. Also, you don't have enough history with the recipe under YOUR conditions to know if DOS or another problem might arise. And finally, folks who purchase your stuff will want a consistent product and constancy takes practice. So you run the risk of disappointing and then alienating a customer.

Please think about what we've said, despite the tone. Slow it down, make sure your stuff is where you want it to be and then charge ahead. Success is addictive, but you don't want to fall over a cliff by charging ahead without knowing exactly what's in the path.

[southern.scents]

I don't think I could have said it any better if I was in your shoes. I really appreciate the more calm and less insulting tone.

Dumb mistakes? Oh please - I could write the book. But I'm old and gray now and looking back it's quite obvious to me that so many of them could have been avoided if only... And guess what - Many of them were lessons I should have learned a different way.

Anyway, I would be surprised if E would be thrilled to hear you sold your third batch. But then she's surprised me before. She does make amazing soap (and scrubs) though - she's the one who got ME hooked. I haven't had the benefit of trying her candles but I bet they are great too.

I am glad that you are showing maturity in learning from an expert and truly wish you the best. Frankly, though, I don't think we were challenging your recipe - it was the speed to market that makes us shudder and twitch. You've heard it before, about developing your product more thoroughly before selling - I won't lambaste you on that again - but please do think through the repercussions of selling too soon. Not only is it possible that there could have been problems with your batch, but you sold it before it was at it's peak. Also, you don't have enough history with the recipe under YOUR conditions to know if DOS or another problem might arise. And finally, folks who purchase your stuff will want a consistent product and constancy takes practice. So you run the risk of disappointing and then alienating a customer.

Please think about what we've said, despite the tone. Slow it down, make sure your stuff is where you want it to be and then charge ahead. Success is addictive, but you don't want to fall over a cliff by charging ahead without knowing exactly what's in the path.

[Fire and Ice]

Souythern Scents, maybe a good place to start would be a soap swap. We have a swap area of the boards. Your soap needs to be judge by those who KNOW! (And NO, that's not ME) But I know that if you have normal skin, what about someone with very senitive skin? What will your soap do to them when they shower with it?

A soap swap is a great place to start because people who are in the know, know what to look for and how to properly judge a bar of soap.

One of the ways I learned to improve my candles and melts way to be in four or five swaps and allow others to review my work. I learned a great deal! Many of the reviews were good, some were not so good but everyone was honest, including me!

Something to think about.

Fire

[CBE]

Hey!! Good idea! There's an Essence of Nature Soap Swap in the swap section! Come join SS!! I think HP is allowed!! Seriously... what Fire and Ice is saying is the truth. Joining swaps gets your product to other people, who know what to look for, after a swap is finished and people receive their boxes (with all those goodies), everyone posts reviews on each product. It really helps you... you find out what people like about your product... what people don't like about your product... you find out what needs to be re-vamped and what needs to stay the same in formulations.... give it a shot!

[southern.scents]

I will definitley look into the swap but I can't make any promises. I have an ACT test coming up, a new wholesale account to fill orders for, old wholesale account orders to fill, projects due and Finals coming up all in the next two weeks. I also have the CT Secret Santa stuff to finish up, a Christmas parties to attend, gift baskets to make to donate to the local nursing homes, and so so much more. I still have not figured out what I'm gonna do for my teachers this year eithet I always get everyone something but I am just not sure this year. All this not to mention I have no idea how to use tomato puree or anything such as this to make a soap. I may just wait until something a little less restriciting comes around unless someone wants to suplement my knowledge by telling be how you would go about doing this in HP.

[Wendy Shoofitz]

Since this discussion is about homemade soap maybe you all can tell me what makes the colors in the soap come off on your skin? Are you "artists" adding too much color, not cured enough, what? I do know this has happened to me more than once and the bar goes in the trash. This from the so called soapers elite right here on CT, ha!

For those people mentioning that some people are sue happy, that is ridiculous to think someone will sue over a rash. Dove gives me a rash, so what, I don't buy it. How many soapers on here have been sued because of something your soap did? Probably none.

I am not defending SS at all. Sorry SS but you are definitely a case for the books. Do this challenge these ladies are asking of you and be done with it. I think you have about 100 excuses of why you are not able at the moment.

[southern.scents]

Well, I may have made excuse but I kinda already agreed to do the swap if someone is willing to help me out just a little.

Since this discussion is about homemade soap maybe you all can tell me what makes the colors in the soap come off on your skin? Are you "artists" adding too much color, not cured enough, what? I do know this has happened to me more than once and the bar goes in the trash. This from the so called soapers elite right here on CT, ha!

For those people mentioning that some people are sue happy, that is ridiculous to think someone will sue over a rash. Dove gives me a rash, so what, I don't buy it. How many soapers on here have been sued because of something your soap did? Probably none.

I am not defending SS at all. Sorry SS but you are definitely a case for the books. Do this challenge these ladies are asking of you and be done with it. I think you have about 100 excuses of why you are not able at the moment.

[CBE]

Well, I may have made excuse but I kinda already agreed to do the swap if someone is willing to help me out just a little.

I'd help you but I've never done HP before... only CP. Maybe someone else will come along and be willing to help you...

[southern.scents]

I'd help you but I've never done HP before... only CP. Maybe someone else will come along and be willing to help you...

Thanks for at least offering.

[CBE]

I wonder if it's basically the same as CP... adding something like tomato juice, carrot juice or something like that instead of your water....and I'm most surely postive you can throw in some herbs in there before slamming the soap in the mold. Maybe search/google for using juice/herbs in hot process soap....

Be creative!! That's what this swap is for... to push the envelope so to speak and do something you've never accomplished before... use swaps to your advantage.... it's fun to experiment!

[GrandmaArial]

I have a tendency to do things my own way… others most likely will do things differently. With luck there will be lots of feedback for this (and I’ll learn something too).

I haven’t added vegetables to HP but you can substitute the juice for all or part of the water with CP, no reason you can’t do the same with HP. I have read recipes that recommend adding purée at trace both for HP and CP, about 1 tbs/ppo. I wouldn’t discount the water with HP, I think any excess moisture with such a small amount will cook out, though it will probably be softer at first than usual. The fiber in the vegetables changes the texture of the soap. Give it a few days to dry out. Adding herbs to it easy enough. You can grind dry herbs up to a powder and add at trace. You can also infuse oils with herbs and use the infused oils to make the soap. I always use olive oil to infuse herbs into. That’s my preference. Any stable oil will work. I use the double boiler method, but be aware over heating can destroy the good stuff in the herbs, gentle heat! Just dump as much herb in the oil as you want (or can fit). Bring the water to a bare simmer and warm the oil. I will bring the water to simmer several times over a couple days if need be until the oils gets the smell I want. I cover the pot and let sit between simmering, don’t just leave it sitting cooking. It will more than likely over heat. You can also put the herbs in a jar with the oil and set someplace warm and ignore. This takes longer, up to 6 weeks. If you use this method I recommend keeping the jar tightly covered and use a glass jar only and avoid sunlight (which like heat can destroy the goodies in the herbs). If you want to set it in the sun used colored glass, or clear if you’re not concerned about saving the flavonoids and esters. Drain with a cheesecloth. Just use this infused oil as some of your base oil.

Note that the scent from the herbs will not survive well in soap using this method. I can perceive a bare hit in the finished product, and I have a strong sense of smell. I do think the qualities survive at least to a point though as people comment on the different qualities of the soaps I make with different herbs.

Welcome to the swap. And have fun with this. It is not a test. push your envelope, experiment, but most of all have fun.

[candlelady]

GEEZ, HERE WE GO AGAIN!

Come on people, you already know this person just gets under your skin no matter what they do, how they do it, when they do it, etc....etc....etc....

Just stop wasting our time on the board by being just down right mean! If you can't help, then cut loose already!

To quote COCO:"Thanks Grandma for the classy, realistic post. Regardless of how I feel about what SS is doing, I have been particularly disturbed lately by how demeaning people can be here. How about simply not responding if something enrages you to the point where you need to insult someone? Just a thought..."

SS, I'd love to help, but I don't soap....just wanted to chime in here.

[doris]

I'm sorry, but I thought that first you asked for help, and then you learned to make something and THEN you wholesaled your product. I wasn't aware that the order had changed that you sell your batch first, and then learn how to make it.

[ladydragon]

If I was adding tomato puree it would go in after the cook... Work quickly and incorporate well and you should get a nice subtle marbled finish to each slice...

I add 5% extra water to HP to help keep the mix smoother and easier to mould...

[southern.scents]

I'm sorry, but I thought that first you asked for help, and then you learned to make something and THEN you wholesaled your product. I wasn't aware that the order had changed that you sell your batch first, and then learn how to make it.

I do know how to make HP soap and did wholesale the first batch. I was asking how I would go about using a puree in my batch as I do not know how to do this and have not made or sold a batch of soap with puree in it.

[CareBear]

thought it was your third batch.

As for how to HP a puree - I can only speak to CP where I add it at trace

[southern.scents]

thought it was your third batch.

As for how to HP a puree - I can only speak to CP where I add it at trace

You're right. It is way too early.