Cheated on weight of oils??

[CareBear]

No, of course your not going to get 8-1oz. out of it!

Why wouldn't she if it is filled by weight. She may not get 8 - 1 LIQUID oz bottles but she should get 8 bottles that each contain 28.3 grams (1 oz by weight).

Volume is not helpful folks, unless you are doing your whole recipe/formula by volume. Which is inaccurate to say the least.

bren31 - weight your ingredients or you don't know what % you are using them at!!!

[byrd46740]

Selling by volume would NOT be helpful as our formulas are based on weight.

You can still weigh out what you need if your bottle is full vs partially full. The fact that the bottle is filled shoud not prevent you from measuring out what you need. Just means you have more oil and can get more candles out of it:D

Bren31, altho technically it is suppose to be added by weight, I have never ever weighed my oil, always used a shot glass too and adjusted accordingly depending on the heaviness of the oil. My candles always turn out great. I do not have time nor patience for preciseness. Guess that is why I always kept fresh water fish and not salt LOL

HeavenscentU, if I were to take an 8oz bottle of my creme brulee and fill by weight, it would only be about 3/4 full. In turn I could take and pour that into 8 - 1oz bottles, and altho they may be 1oz by weight, they too would only be about 3/4 full.

Hang me up and beat me like a piñata gals, but a full bottle just gives you more for your money which means you will get more candles out of a bottle if you go by weight when you make your candles. I would be ashamed to send out a 3/4 full bottle.

And back to the original post about weighing. Yes, when I received bottles that were less then filled, you bet your booty I would weigh them to make sure they were not cheating on weight. I still felt cheated, but as long as they weighed out, I knew tachnically in the world of candle making, that I was not being cheated as much as I didn't like it. I would think the suppliers would have as much money tied up in labor costs at taking the time to weigh out each scent exactly as they would if they just filled the bottles. Would take me at least 5 times longer to pour if not more. Maybe some suppliers have figured that out and that is why some just take the fast route of filling the bottles!

[The_Dallas_Texas_Dean]

I think mistakes happen and I wouldn't be too quick to think that a supplier is using the ol "thumb on the scale" trick when weighing out the oils. They have too much to lose and so little to gain by short changing a little oil on purpose.

I know many of them are anal about weighing it exactly to the purchased weight and not filling a drop over.....but if you have hundreds or thousands of customers and you give away .5 an oz of oil in every bottle filled, I guess it would add up to a lot of money lost....unless you see it from the perspective that every customer will know and appreciate the added oil and make them loyal customers until the dying end, which I doubt.

I do not weigh the oils I get in but when I was ordering everything in Lbs., I could look at the container and see if it was filled to the same place each time. Nearly all of the suppliers state that oils are sold by weight and they are all different. I have often wondered if it took more staff time ($) to weigh it exactly as opposed to just filling them up and moving on with the next order to be filled. I would think that a seasoned staff member could probably weigh out the oils fairly fast, whereas one with less experience might take awhile AND make some mistakes.

I guess I am saying my thought on this would be to give them the benefit of the doubt. I am either hopelessly optimistic or totally gullible, but I just can't imagine any reputable supplier doing this on purpose.

[The_Dallas_Texas_Dean]

I think mistakes happen and I wouldn't be too quick to think that a supplier is using the ol "thumb on the scale" trick when weighing out the oils. They have too much to lose and so little to gain by short changing a little oil on purpose.

I know many of them are anal about weighing it exactly to the purchased weight and not filling a drop over.....but if you have hundreds or thousands of customers and you give away .5 an oz of oil in every bottle filled, I guess it would add up to a lot of money lost....unless you see it from the perspective that every customer will know and appreciate the added oil and make them loyal customers until the dying end, which I doubt.

I do not weigh the oils I get in but when I was ordering everything in Lbs., I could look at the container and see if it was filled to the same place each time. Nearly all of the suppliers state that oils are sold by weight and they are all different. I have often wondered if it took more staff time ($) to weigh it exactly as opposed to just filling them up and moving on with the next order to be filled. I would think that a seasoned staff member could probably weigh out the oils fairly fast, whereas one with less experience might take awhile AND make some mistakes.

I guess I am saying my thought on this would be to give them the benefit of the doubt. I am either hopelessly optimistic or totally gullible, but I just can't imagine any reputable supplier doing this on purpose.

[leisa2003]

Why wouldn't she if it is filled by weight. She may not get 8 - 1 LIQUID oz bottles but she should get 8 bottles that each contain 28.3 grams (1 oz by weight).

Volume is not helpful folks, unless you are doing your whole recipe/formula by volume. Which is inaccurate to say the least.

bren31 - weight your ingredients or you don't know what % you are using them at!!!

Thats what I meant, she wouldn't get 8 - 1 fluid oz. bottles.

Thank God, my gasoline for my car isn't weighed!!!

[leisa2003]

I kept getting double posts also, and when coming in, had a strange error at the door!!!!

[leisa2003]

You can still weigh out what you need if your bottle is full vs partially full. The fact that the bottle is filled shoud not prevent you from measuring out what you need. Just means you have more oil and can get more candles out of it:D

Bren31, altho technically it is suppose to be added by weight, I have never ever weighed my oil, always used a shot glass too and adjusted accordingly depending on the heaviness of the oil. My candles always turn out great. I do not have time nor patience for preciseness. Guess that is why I always kept fresh water fish and not salt LOL

HeavenscentU, if I were to take an 8oz bottle of my creme brulee and fill by weight, it would only be about 3/4 full. In turn I could take and pour that into 8 - 1oz bottles, and altho they may be 1oz by weight, they too would only be about 3/4 full.

Hang me up and beat me like a piñata gals, but a full bottle just gives you more for your money which means you will get more candles out of a bottle if you go by weight when you make your candles. I would be ashamed to send out a 3/4 full bottle.

And back to the original post about weighing. Yes, when I received bottles that were less then filled, you bet your booty I would weigh them to make sure they were not cheating on weight. I still felt cheated, but as long as they weighed out, I knew tachnically in the world of candle making, that I was not being cheated as much as I didn't like it. I would think the suppliers would have as much money tied up in labor costs at taking the time to weigh out each scent exactly as they would if they just filled the bottles. Would take me at least 5 times longer to pour if not more. Maybe some suppliers have figured that out and that is why some just take the fast route of filling the bottles!

I agree, and I do the same as you and Bren!

Here is you whippin girl....:feliz:

[leisa2003]

Candletech acting up again....

[leisa2003]

Heres something to think about with the weight thingy.

Imperial gallon and a US gallon aren't equal. does that mean that a fluid ounce in Britain is less than a fluid ounce in the USA? What a barbaric and archaic system. Only the USA and the Philippines still use it. It really says something when the country that created this system, the UK, doesn't even use it anymore.

In Britain a fluid ounce and an ounce of water are equal, but that is not the case in the USA. In the USA a fluid ounce of water is about 4% greater than an ounce of water.

Also in the UK, there are 20 fl oz in a pint. In the USA it's 16.

The Imperial gallon weighs exactly 10 pounds, while the USA gallon (also called the wine gallon) weighs 8.34 pounds.

Geeze, what happens to "A pint's a pound, the world around" if an ounce of water doesn't weigh an ounce? Weigh out a pound of water in a measuring cup and see, it is a little less than a (16 ounce, US) pint.

Next up, the explanation of fluid ounce:

A traditional unit of liquid volume, called the fluid ounce to avoid confusion with the weight ounce. In the U. S. customary system there are 16 fluid ounces in a pint, so each fluid ounce represents 1.804 687 cubic inches or 29.573 531 milliliters. In the British imperial system there are 20 fluid ounces in an imperial pint, so each fluid ounce represents about 1.733 871 cubic inches or 28.413 063 milliliters. A fluid ounce of water weighs just a bit more than one ounce avoirdupois.

So, according to these definitions, not only are the two ounces used to measure different properties of a substance, there are two different standards for measuring a fluid ounce. It's enough to make a person beg for the metric system!

[byrd46740]

Leisa - STOP THE MADNESS lol As tho our heads aren't messed up enough:confused:

Fluids should be measured in fluid ounces, that is why they are called fluid ounces. Dry & solids are measured by weight. We all learned that in school. As far as US system vs the rest of the world - we are right and they are wrong and that's all there is to it LOLOLOLOL I like to think of it that way anyway:D Everyone knows that we are stuck in our ways here and we like it that way.

We are all going to have a preference to something. To me, more is better and I prefer full bottles and the easiest method of doing things. Doesn't make me wrong, just short on time. I can get far more done in a day if I don't worry about every little pee picking thing. Sometimes being precise is vital and sometimes it's not. Wouldn't want to go to a brain surgeon who takes the quickest route *faint* Guess that's why I'm not a brain surgeon LOL

Loved the piñata icon by the way!!!

[leisa2003]

Leisa - STOP THE MADNESS lol As tho our heads aren't messed up enough:confused:

Fluids should be measured in fluid ounces, that is why they are called fluid ounces. Dry & solids are measured by weight. We all learned that in school. As far as US system vs the rest of the world - we are right and they are wrong and that's all there is to it LOLOLOLOL I like to think of it that way anyway:D Everyone knows that we are stuck in our ways here and we like it that way.

We are all going to have a preference to something. To me, more is better and I prefer full bottles and the easiest method of doing things. Doesn't make me wrong, just short on time. I can get far more done in a day if I don't worry about every little pee picking thing. Sometimes being precise is vital and sometimes it's not. Wouldn't want to go to a brain surgeon who takes the quickest route *faint* Guess that's why I'm not a brain surgeon LOL

Loved the piñata icon by the way!!!

Sorry for messin the heads up more!:tiptoe:

I thought you might like the Pinata:D

[Camay]

Everyone should check the accuracy and precision and range of their home scales. Your scale might not be rated to measure 1.0 ounce, and so you could be introducing more error in you measurement than you think.

I agree that weighing is the most accurate way to measure. The density of the liquids change with temperature, so volume is dependent on temperature. The metric system is the way to go, IMO.

I also want to add that I weighed two different 1 oz samples of Candle Science and they both came out to 1.0 ounce (on all three of my scales)! CS is awesome!

Cam

[CareBear]

Fluids should be measured in fluid ounces, that is why they are called fluid ounces. Dry & solids are measured by weight. We all learned that in school.

If you had taken laboratory courses in school and learned about formulating you would have learned that you use the same units for all components. Weight, to be precise.

[leisa2003]

If you had taken laboratory courses in school and learned about formulating you would have learned that you use the same units for all components. Weight, to be precise.

Hmmmmm, chemistry!

Well let me tell ya something, chemistry ...although still taught, doesn't mean squat in this world these days.

OK, so, we have a Pint's a Pound the World Around and all that other neat stuff they USED to teach in school back in the 1950's or so. But then the United States Congress got into the act. Now, the members of congress, by and large, have college degrees, and, as the Wizard of Oz pointed out to the Scarecrow, you don't need BRAINS if you have a degree. Therefore, the United States Congress threw out all the scientific "nonsense" and declared, by force of law, that a "CUP" is 240 ML. Never mind the fact that for the last 200 years or more, a "Cup" was 8 oz and all that other "nice" stuff that cooks have relied upon since Apple Pie was invented. By ROYAL DECREE the US Congress has said the truth doesn't matter. If it grows on a vine or a tree, it was always called "Fruit" - as in the "Fruit of the Vine" - and if it grows on or under the ground it was a Vegetable - but, again by ROYAL DECREE, "Tomatoes" - that grow on vines like grapes or blackberries (the edible kind), or Blue Berries (the kind in your pie) - None the less, tomatoes are now a VEGETABLE! Not only are tomatoes a vegetable, SO IS CATSUP! Go figure - just toss out every thing you ever learned in school and everything written in the front of cook books and go with your gut. But be sure you comply with the LAW when you label your product - Remember, it doesn't matter that in the laboratory a "CUP" is 236.64 (rounded) ML - in the United States Congress, and on your food label (calories be damned!) a "CUP" is 240 ML. So we are caught between what we are taught, and what the "LAW" is of measurments.

Now, with appologies to the Scarecrow and Dorothy, and the Wizard of OZ - - - if only CONGRESS had a brain! Aparently there is not ONE among them!

Anyways, to get to my point...We dont know what measurements are TRUE, and with that said, we cant change that our suppliers/manufacturers measures our oils, so the best thing to do is hope all scales will be someday created just alike and allow for no mistakes. NEVER!

I actually do NOT weigh my oils, unless I feel,.. or it seems I have been cheated, then I do so because I know the supplier is sending my oil by their weight. If I have a heavier oil, I just know to use less. I like simple fluid oz. instead of the SCALE.

Don"t any of ya'all get me wrong.... I love america....but I dont agree we are ALWAYS right.

[byrd46740]

I second that. I think we live in the best country in the world - but our government stinks. They are all a bunch of crooks! Enough said on that, cause I could bash the gov all day

As for lab classes - didn't need em and still don't. I'll stick to my Betty Crocker class on measuring 101:laugh2:

Well I have about 200 FULL bottles of oil to pour, so I need to get on it and stop debating. Boy you sure know how to start em Leisa lol

[CareBear]

Chemistry - it is quite meaningful in my world. At work certainly, but at home too.

And as for "true" - what matters is being consistent. And it's very hard to be consistent & precise with volume measurements using basic household implements (even Betty Crocker will agree). If you have scientific glassware maybe. Besides - you really should measure things in the same "recipe" using the same units = how else can you translate that to different batch sizes. If I have %s I can make ANY batch size and have things in the right proportion.

So you "just know to use less" - but how then do you know how much you use? Or how much you should. I guess eyeballing it works in candles but for the B&B stuff I make that wouldn't work at all. Lye... preservatives... etc.

The rest of your post made my head spin - so I had to stop reading LOL.

As for our government being a bunch of crooks byrd - I'll leave that discussion for another time.

[leisa2003]

Carebear- I use 1fl. oz per lb. of melted wax. If it is a heavier oil, I will use alittle less then 1fl. oz. of the majority of my oils, that aren't heavier. If I have proper weighted oils from my suppliers, which I usually do, then I can get about 32 (8oz. jar size) out of a 16 oz. bottle of oil. ( If not heavier oil).

[CareBear]

accuracy at it's best!!! LOL. Like I said, it's not that vital in candles - but in B&B this just wouldn't do. glad it works for you.

[Camay]

I agree with CareBear, Chemistry is quite important to me at work (I'm a chemist after all) and at home (making candles and soap).

And I also agree that accuracy and precision are not tremendously vital to candlemaking, but more required for soaping.

[leisa2003]

Thanks ladies!

I do everything I can in life for enjoyment. Life's to short to worry always about percision, and accuracy all the time. I even know quite a few popular chefs who dont measure ingredients. Not saying what you all do is wrong, by no means, but with 4 kids and my lifestyle I have no time to be as accurate and perfect at everything. Thats why I guess the world is ran today alot like it is.

If anyone knows how your hands can be taking from you in a split second, its me! I do have both my hands, but have rods and screws in both wrists. I thank god everyday, that I can still make a candle. Have fun ladies!

[Sharon in KY]

I hope in this thread every supplier that may do this on purpose know that we do know. Those that fill around the amount more or less are not to worry. Cause it is not them that I notice it's the ones that are cutting an oz. or more all the time.

[beesweet]

I just wanted to say that I by no means feel that every time it happens, it is on purpose. Out of the multitude of suppliers, only a couple give me this feeling. Last fall, we did 3 fundraisers in particular with scents spread between 2 suppliers. Every scent from supplier A calculated exactly to cover our orders. Every scent from suppier B was short 1-2 oz. per pound by weight. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but 20 lbs or more of FO. Supplier B says in their policies that fragrances are sold by weight so our ordering was based on weight required. It still pisses me off to not only think of the "loss" in fragrance, but much more, the excess shipping to order in more.

Regarding my thoughts on volume vs. weight...the key to a quality product is consistency and volume just isn't consistent. Then, toss in accurate calculation of costs and there ya go...

[Kelly]

I just want to throw this into the mix. Some of the places may bottle up their fragrances and then put them on a shelf, over time some of the FO may evaporate out of the bottles and then by the time they reach you weigh less than they should.

Suppliers shouldn't be bottling and waiting for them to sell but I'm sure that some do it. Maybe they run out of room or low on inventory and want to keep count, etc.

But this shouldn't be happening just wanted to add that to this thread.

[leisa2003]

The whole point of this thread is that I just want what I am paying for, no less. I do know of a few suppliers where my bottles as they come in, say for an 8 oz. bottle, will weigh in at roughly 9 oz. And Kudos to ICS because theirs is always around this mark each time I get a order in, never had any problems and they are fast.

I sometimes will also check my shipping packages, as I know of a couple places, EBAY especially, that will have their hidden fee's in on their shipping. Not much you can do, but to NOT go back to that seller. $2 here and their in hidden shipping fees is rediculous, why not just put the cost up front.