starlessjade Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I'm working with IGI 1343 with 3 tbs stearic pp. So far I've been using 1 oz fragrance oil pp and would like to try increasing that amount for some of my fragrances, but I have no idea what the limit would be for this wax and I'd hate to waste a bunch of FO and wax figuring it out if someone already knows. Thanks a bunch!p.s. just a general idea would be fine- I'm not necessarily trying to force in as much FO as possible, just want to try a little more while still keeping it within the reasonable range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scented Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Mmmm, it wouldn't matter what FO, I would never go over 1.5 oz. I use a little less with additives in that wax, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlessjade Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 Thanks, that was just what I was looking for... do you think maybe I should try around 1.25 oz and see what happens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scented Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 You're already past the limit for that wax.The effects of overloading are gradual and the FO doesn't just come pouring out, but the wicking gets weird and the top of the candle mostly liquifies each time you burn it. If you use a smaller wick it will probably mushroom or otherwise malfunction and the candle may tunnel and bulge around the melt pool.Even candle companies that charge a lot of money and want to use as much scent as they can, find that 3 to 4% is the max for that wax using only stearic acid. Looking at how their candles burn and what wicks are in them can be educational.With additives apart from stearic you can go higher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlessjade Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 You're absolutely right! For some reason I could have sworn that it was 6 or 8%. I actually hadn't noticed any problems when burning... but I will cut down and see what happens. I'm pouring rustics so I don't think I can add vybar. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 You're absolutely right! For some reason I could have sworn that it was 6 or 8%. I actually hadn't noticed any problems when burning... but I will cut down and see what happens. I'm pouring rustics so I don't think I can add vybar. Thanks!You're welcome.I remember the photo you posted. It looked overwicked to me. The melt pool was super wide for just a 3 hour burn and the flame sounded large. Problem is, with too much FO in 1343 a smaller wick may not fix it. You may still get too wide a pool or some other burn problem instead.There's a lot of "see no evil" around here as far as the effects of overscenting are concerned. If you want to make great candles, don't get lured into it. The secret to paraffin/stearic pillars that burn great and throw well is careful testing and selection of fragrance oils and using them in quantities that don't overburden what is basically plain paraffin. Stearic doesn't do much to increase the capacity of the wax, though it can help make a drier surface when the candle is at room temp.For the most kick-ass throw it's best to go to containers rather than put container-level amounts of FO into this kind of candle. Or of course you can use other additives in your pillars if you want to and bump it up. The candle will look different, but a rustic looks the way you want it to look. You don't have to imitate a particular style that some are making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freezin Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 Well said Top! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlessjade Posted March 19, 2007 Author Share Posted March 19, 2007 Yes, I remember that you said that. Sorry I ignored you... others were saying that the melt pool looked good so I guess I wanted to agree with the people who said I was right rather than the one who said I was wrong. :embarasse The surface of my candles has been coming out weird lately, and I was going to ask about it as soon as I had a good photo, but maybe the problem is just the FO overload. I'll pour something tonight at 1/2 oz pp (that's correct, right?) and see what happens.If only container candles could be as pretty as pillars! I want a good throw, but I just can't resist all the gorgeous layering that you can put in a rustic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candle Man Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 With straight 1343 and no additives the max FO load I found is 3/4oz per pound, any more and the FO sweats out. Of course you want to use less for heavy FO's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugenia Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 I'm pouring rustics so I don't think I can add vybar. Thanks! Sure you can. It will cut mottle but not the rustic effect. Just add a pinch per lb. (1.4 t or so) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 With straight 1343 and no additives the max FO load I found is 3/4oz per pound, any more and the FO sweats out. Of course you want to use less for heavy FO's.That's about 4 1/2% fragrance, not far off from what I concluded. It's really more about the candle type than the particular paraffin. Some higher MP waxes like 4045 might do a little better but we're talking about small differences.My standard for testing was good wick performance, good flame height, consistent burn rate, no sagging, bulging, sweating or aesthetic defects on the outer surface. Couldn't get anywhere near 1 oz pp.Many companies and people have looked at this issue, so I asked someone at IGI what the concensus was about how much FO could be used in this kind of candle without compromising quality factors. He said the manufacturers draw the line around 4% and that reaching 5% was considered "extemely difficult". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candle Man Posted March 19, 2007 Share Posted March 19, 2007 For smooth finish pillars with 1343 and vybar 103 I use 1.5oz's FO per pound with great burn results, completly self consume with no blow outs or bulges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scented Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 I don't get bulges either and I have used as much as 1.25 oz with additives, no bad tops, no FO sweating out, no mottling, no sweaty mottling when I do go for mottles. In addition, there's still a vybar 343 is it that could be used. So we're not off in saying that FO loads may be increased in using 1343 with the addition of additives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 The load can be increased with additives, but with plain paraffin and stearic the limit is on the order of 3 or 4 percent depending on the fragrance. FO doesn't come pouring out the sides at room temperature, but the burn qualities aren't normal. For instance I think this is the explanation for why a few people suddenly jump to outlandish sizes of LX for a 3 inch paraffin pillar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlessjade Posted March 20, 2007 Author Share Posted March 20, 2007 Okay... so the consensus is 3-4 percent, or around 1/2 oz pp with the 1343 and just stearic, but if I were to add vybar, losing the mottling but still getting a rustic finish, I could bump it up to 1 oz pp or maybe even 1.25 oz? lol that was a mouthful. Actually, I might just stick with the 1/2 oz pp... somehow I doubt I'm going to get much of a throw from pillars anyway. I would make them unscented, but for some reason I feel compelled to add fragrance to anything and everything. Is that one of the warning signs of FOCD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted March 20, 2007 Share Posted March 20, 2007 Actually, I might just stick with the 1/2 oz pp... somehow I doubt I'm going to get much of a throw from pillars anyway. I would make them unscented, but for some reason I feel compelled to add fragrance to anything and everything.Believe it or not, making good unscented candles has difficulties all its own. With 1343 it's probably easier to make scented ones. People have forgotten that candles weren't always loaded with fragrance oil, so instead of designing unfragranced candles with the best wax and wicking, they load it up with mineral oil.Exactly how much you can fragrance your rustics with different additives is something you'll best figure out on your own through testing. The FOs really vary a lot in how well they work with the wax, plus nobody makes their candles exactly like you do. Testing is time consuming but you'll learn a tremendous amount.Why don't you start off making the candles exactly as you're doing it except use 1/2 oz pp FO. Realistically you can't be certain of avoiding burn issues beyond that. Try LX 18 or equivalent as a starting point and experiment until you feel you have a great burn. I'd suggest you want to see the candle burn into the center slightly before the shell starts to curl in during the third burn or end of the second.Once you set a standard for yourself of what's a good burn for your candles, you try to see how much the fragrance load can be increased with different fragrance/additive combinations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlessjade Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 Will do.Thanks everyone for all the help! I hate to annoy anyone or sound like an idiot, but I really do want to learn and so far I haven't been able to find any good resources other than this board. Even the halfway decent instructions I've found on the internet are not specific to the wax and method that I'm using, so they don't help much. My case of 1343 came yesterday, and this week is my spring break... time to play! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 I hate to annoy anyone or sound like an idiot,None of the above. In fact I think it led to a very good topic.There are lots of pretty pictures of paraffin/stearic candles in the gallery but very few burn photos. The few that have been posted on the board don't look so good. You might even call it a horror show if you put them all together. Over time I've seen a long list of burn problems and wicking weirdnesses described, in public and in private.I pushed it too far myself for a long time. I wasn't satisfied with the results, especially compared with the best candles of the type that I could find commercially. I put months of testing into wicks, additives and fragrance levels, plus asked around as much as I could. In retrospect the conclusion isn't surprising.There's only so far you can go scenting plain paraffin and get a good candle. The fragrance retention is very limited. I know it's hard, but the Almighty will forgive us for using less fragrance oil. The devil may not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starlessjade Posted March 21, 2007 Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 I know it's hard, but the Almighty will forgive us for using less fragrance oil. The devil may not.Quote of the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverm00n Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Can I jump in here?Because I'm confused now. When I searched, the info I found to make a mottle with 1343 said you need to up the FO (about 1 oz. pp), add 2 teaspoons stearic, which makes the crystals bind and pull apart (or something of that sort), to create the effect...? And sweating was a good thing. If adding more than 3-4% with no vybar, interferes with proper burning, then how do you make a mottle? :undecidedSorry for the run on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 If adding more than 3-4% with no vybar, interferes with proper burning, then how do you make a mottle? :undecidedIt won't mottle any less with that amount, not to worry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverm00n Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 On the contrary, for me at least. I made one with 3%, got no mottle, just a bit of fingernailing. I bumped it up to 1 oz and the mottle is full and looks awesome. Haven't test burned it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 On the contrary, for me at least. I made one with 3%, got no mottle, just a bit of fingernailing. I bumped it up to 1 oz and the mottle is full and looks awesome. Haven't test burned it yet.Beats me. Using a paraffin that readily mottles, the only thing that stops it from going berserk on me is the stearic acid. That supresses the mottling so be careful not to accidentally use too much. Otherwise just pour at 180 and cool at room temperature in a draft-free place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vickyhoward3269 Posted March 21, 2007 Share Posted March 21, 2007 Can I put my two cents in here? I really think you all have made excellent points, however I have found the key to be in the fragrance oils. There are some oils out there that will just give it a crappy burn, and other oils will burn great. For me it has been all testing, testing, testing with each individual fragrance oil. I know it's a pain, but that is the nature of the beast with 1343. Vicky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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