1343a

[Cari]

Where can I get some? I love ordering from Peaks but the site says it's backordered. I have MAYBE 2#

Is there another supplier? I need the mottle. Or should I try another kind? Only thing is i just ordered 1000 wicks for my votives, for the 1343A

Cari

[Mtngrl]

Does Peak's have any of the 1274? That's a mottling wax for pillars.

[Cari]

do you use this wax?

[scrubzz]

Bitter Creek has it - http://www.candlesupply.com/waxes.html

and Lone Star carries a 1343 but is it A or N? http://www.lonestarcandlesupply.com/wax.html#IGI-1343

[OSuzyQ]

The 1343 I got from Lonestar was 1343A. Call them-they will go check

[scrubzz]

In that case Lone Star would be a lot closer to you in East Texas

[Mtngrl]

I have some of the 1274. According to Alan, the only difference between the 1343a & the 1274 is that the manfacturer puts it thru one more test (whatever that may be) to make sure it consistently mottles. Alan believes there's no difference in composition between the two.

I believe that I read Devra is very happy w/ the mottles & rustics she gets w/ the 1274. Hopefully she'll chime in here & toss around her 2 cents.

I've made a couple of pillars with it using MO. I haven't reached any conclusions about it since I've done just two.

If Peak's is closer to you than other places, then you might want to fill in the void w/ the 1274. It wouldn't hurt to get some of it to see what you think of it.

Edited to add: I just read the above post by Scrubzz. It sounds like Peak's is not all that close to you. I'd do whatever I could to keep the shipping costs down.

[Cari]

I'll check with Lonestar in the morning. I can get orders from Peak in 3 days. I guess I better look into getting a slab of the other to test incase I run into trouble again.

Thanks!!

C

[topofmurrayhill]

According to Alan, the only difference between the 1343a & the 1274 is that the manfacturer puts it thru one more test (whatever that may be) to make sure it consistently mottles. Alan believes there's no difference in composition between the two.

I won't say there couldn't be an element of truth in that, but I can't accept it exactly as stated. The products are similar enough that you could say they're in the same family. However, IGI's product data sheets indicate different melting point, hardness, etc. More to the point, I have plenty of both around here and the 1274 always mottles more in every test I've done with the same amount of FO. Actually that can make it trickier to use.

It's possible that they both come from the same stock, but at the very least they sort out the variations into 2 distinct products.

[Mtngrl]

I won't say there couldn't be an element of truth in that, but I can't accept it exactly as stated. The products are similar enough that you could say they're in the same family. However, IGI's product data sheets indicate different melting point, hardness, etc. More to the point, I have plenty of both around here and the 1274 always mottles more in every test I've done with the same amount of FO. Actually that can make it trickier to use.

It's possible that they both come from the same stock, but at the very least they sort out the variations into 2 distinct products.

I'll be the 1st to say that I don't know the ins & outs of the waxes in intimate detail as you appear to have. I personally am content, at this point, to trust Alan's judgement of the products he sells. Ultimately, I think the proof is in the pudding, which is why I have some of the 1274 to test & compare w/ the 1343.

At the same time, I'm very pleased to hear that you are able to tell a difference between the two waxes. Keeping in mind that they are sold as two distinct products, I would hope there would be some differences in results. :smiley2:

[topofmurrayhill]

Yeah it just happens that I've had a lot of opportunity to compare these two.

1343 is pretty versatile so if you have that you definitely don't NEED 1274 but you might find it interesting and maybe useful to check out.

My understanding is that there are certain waxes for which a producer will provide a higher than normal batch consistency, and I think both these products may be in that category. I'm sure that has some connection with what Alan was saying.

Particularly with a "mottling wax" you can understand how candle producers depend on batch consistency. They have a certain formula and production process for mottles and to have the wax vary significantly from batch to batch would wreak havoc on the consistent appearance and quality of their product.

[Alan]

I won't say there couldn't be an element of truth in that, but I can't accept it exactly as stated. The products are similar enough that you could say they're in the same family. However, IGI's product data sheets indicate different melting point, hardness, etc. More to the point, I have plenty of both around here and the 1274 always mottles more in every test I've done with the same amount of FO. Actually that can make it trickier to use.

It's possible that they both come from the same stock, but at the very least they sort out the variations into 2 distinct products.

They carry two different product numbers, so it is easy to assume they are somehow different. Consider this though... four years ago there was no "A" version and no "N" version of the 1343. It was simply 1343. Back then, we were about the only company to offer that wax. When I noticed that one lot didn't mottle as expected and brought it up with IGI, the A and N versions were appended to the product. Look closely at those spec sheets. All the tolerances of 1343 overlap with 1274. The only minor differences exist in the "typical" values. And the variance is trivial. The published tolerances are identical. Does the spec sheet for 1343 reference the A or the N version?... Because we all know there is a difference. But the spec sheet doesn't address that. I've used both waxes extensively (1274 and 1343) and cannot tell a difference between the two. I have been told by IGI that the only difference is that each lot of 1274 goes through the one extra step of testing just to make sure it mottles, where the 1343A does not. The 1343N has an additive in it to prevent mottling.

By the way, the intensity of mottling will vary with any mottling wax to some degree from lot to lot. The more narrowly a cut is, or the more uniform the molecular weights are of the molecules in the mix, the more intense the mottle will be. Mottling happens because of a great deal of organization of a bunch of molecules which are able to form a crystal lattice. That's why if you mix two mottling waxes of different melting points (different molecular weights), you'll often end up with a wax that won't mottle (non-homogeneous mixture). Mixing 1343a and 1274 still produces a mottling wax, suggesting very close, if not identical, molecular weights.

Are these fully mottled candles made from 1343 or 1274?

[Alan]

...Particularly with a "mottling wax" you can understand how candle producers depend on batch consistency. They have a certain formula and production process for mottles and to have the wax vary significantly from batch to batch would wreak havoc on the consistent appearance and quality of their product.

There is certainly some truth there as far as pursuing consistency. But really there are so many other variables that will affect a mottle to a larger extent... ambient temperatures, cooling rates, amount of FO, type of FO, size of the candle, etc. If we had it all our way, they'd come out exactly as imagined everytime:D

[topofmurrayhill]

They carry two different product numbers, so it is easy to assume they are somehow different.

Hi Alan.

The way I would phrase it is that it's safe to assume they're somehow different. The question is, in what way and to what extent?

I can easily accept that 1274 and 1343 come from the same stock. I can also imagine that the process of ensuring batch consistency for 1274 would result in 1343 sometimes being very similar (or even identical as you suggest) and sometimes different. Thus also the variation in their typical properties as described by IGI.

The reality is probably that my impression is based on different batches than yours. You might expect that a product sold as a "mottling wax" would mottle reliably with a relatively modest (inexpensive) oil load, so to the extent the products vary the 1274 should probably be more sensitive. I wish I'd taken photos because that's what I found in test after test with the wax I've had on hand recently.

But as far as that photo is concerned, it could be either wax. They are similar and you can always produce equivalent results. It's just that I've been having to use more oil with the 1343 to get the same degree of mottle.

My experience also seems to diverge from yours on the matter of blending. I've been finding the mottling properties end up being fairly proportional to the properties of the two waxes. If you add higher MP wax to something like 1343 you'll certainly need more oil to get the mottle. But that's consistent with what's demonstrated in IGI's mottling and syneresis papers.

There may be cases where the combination of 2 waxes would produce a discontiguous result in terms of mottling properties as you suggest, but I've been working with 5 straight paraffins lately and haven't seen that yet. So as far as my experience goes, blending 1343 and 1274 and still getting a mottling wax isn't really surprising.

[Alan]

My experience also seems to diverge from yours on the matter of blending. I've been finding the mottling properties end up being fairly proportional to the properties of the two waxes. If you add higher MP wax to something like 1343 you'll certainly need more oil to get the mottle. But that's consistent with what's demonstrated in IGI's mottling and syneresis papers.

IGI's syneresis papers do not address blending of various melt point waxes. They used straight cuts of each melt point independently

If you contaminate a mottling wax, with additives or even with other waxes (higher or lower MP), it will inhibit mottling.

[topofmurrayhill]

IGI's syneresis papers do not address blending of various melt point waxes. They used straight cuts of each melt point independently

If you contaminate a mottling wax, with additives or even with other waxes (higher or lower MP), it will inhibit mottling.

All these things we've been talking about have been the almost-exclusive focus of my activities for the past month, so all I can do is report my results. This is what I've found with the 5 waxes I have on hand:

1 - They all mottle individually when they reach their limit of liquid retention.

2 - They mottle in any combination with each other.

3 - The degree of mottle and bleed depends on the liquid loading.

4 - Higher MP waxes bleed less and require more liquid to mottle.

5 - Combinations of waxes mottle and retain FO fairly predictably based on the proportions at which they are blended.

6 - IGI 1274 both mottles and bleeds more easily than 1343 and these properties contribute predictably to the performance of blends.

I'm not trying to be contrary. These are just the specific things I tried and determined empirically. As regards the syneresis paper, you are right of course but I've simply extended those principles to the context of blends and found them useful.

I've drawn a few other conclusions that, while not fully tested per se, I consider reasonably factual based on my experience so far:

1 - Straight paraffins in general are "mottling waxes." That's just what they do when they reach their limit of liquid retention. For the most part the question is simply how much liquid it takes.

2 - "Mottling wax" seems to be a marketing term for a paraffin that mottles relatively easily and/or attractively and/or consistently.

Of course it would be very interesting if there is any test you can propose that would provide additional insight or further this discussion. I'd be glad to perform it.

[Alan]

Of course it would be very interesting if there is any test you can propose that would provide additional insight or further this discussion. I'd be glad to perform it.

Sure, combine M29 with 1274/1343a, and you'll find that the mix is more resistant to mottling than any single one of those waxes alone.

2 - "Mottling wax" seems to be a marketing term for a paraffin that mottles relatively easily and/or attractively and/or consistently.

And yes you are right, "mottling wax" is indeed a term that describes a wax that is likely to mottle.

1 - Straight paraffins in general are "mottling waxes." That's just what they do when they reach their limit of liquid retention. For the most part the question is simply how much liquid it takes.

That's sort of true, but it should be a fairly narrow cut to promote the formation of an organized crystal lattice. You need a lot of "like" molecules to get the formation of an organized crystal lattice that leads to the separation of phases (solid and liquid) that we see in a mottled candle. That separation of phases is needed to cause the refraction of light that we witness as mottling. If you have a mish-mash of a bunch of different molecules, you won't get the organized crystal lattice formation that promotes phase separation within the wax. Vybar for instance works on the principle of disrupting this lattice, creating a more random crystalline pattern. One that we can't see with the naked eye, and one that leads to cavities between molecules for the oil to hang out in.

4 - Higher MP waxes bleed less and require more liquid to mottle.

Higher MP waxes tend to solidify at a faster rate than their lower MP counterparts when in the same ambient cooling atmosphere. This higher rate of solidification also results in a less organized crystal lattice. That's basic physical chemistry. For large crystals, you have to go slow to allow the molecules enough time to arrange themselves into an organized fashion. Less organization = less mottling. You can reproduce this effect by simply taking something like 1274 and cooling it in a water bath. The accelerated cooling will prevent the formation of an organized crystal lattice.

Anyone that has done hurricanes/luminaries with and without a water bath will have noticed that when slowly cooling (when not using a water bath) you'll see much larger crystals on the interior of the shell, sometimes even very pronounced needle-like projections. With faster cooling, these macro crystals have less time to form, and you end up with a smoother interior surface.

So basically, anything that would promote the formation of large crystals will promote mottling. This includes a fairly homogeneous molecular make up, and time to allow the molecules to get organized as they go from liquid to solid phase. The liquid phase of the oil (FO or mineral) is needed to provided "break points" in the lattice organization and to provide some light refraction at the wax/oil interfaces.

Cheers,

Alan

[BruceCarvesWax]

Dang, if I could just get you two guys together and do a Vulcan "mind meld" on you all, I could be the wax master for sure!

Continue please.... I always have liked a good tennis match.

Bruce

[Tanya]

Dang, if I could just get you two guys together and do a Vulcan "mind meld" on you all, I could be the wax master for sure!

Continue please.... I always have liked a good tennis match.

Bruce

LOL I agree Bruce, and am actually loving this conversation. It's really interesting to finally understand the technical stuff that I often would blow a brain gasket if I thought too much about.

[topofmurrayhill]

I hate to tell you folks, but I suspect we're about done comparing notes here.

Basically we've realized we must stop destroying the Horta eggs.

(Points to anyone who gets that obscure reference! )

[Margaritamama]

All I can say is if I could get my 1274 to look like those candles Alan posted, I'd be real happy..... I can't get mine to mottle for anything.......

[scrubzz]

Re: Horta Eggs

Star Trek! (The original series)

And yeah, I did a search to be sure it was what I was thinking it was

My favorite episode of the original series will always be "The Trouble with Tribbles" LOL

btw I found this - wanna buy a Horta egg? LOL

http://www.sleepless.com/sirius/detail.php?sku=72

[topofmurrayhill]

Heh.

I thought of that episode because of Bruce's witty remark. It has one of the most memorable "Vulcan mind meld" scenes.

Not to mention one of McCoy's memorable signature wisecracks. I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer!

If I recall correctly, that episode was written by Theodore Sturgeon, a real science fiction writer.

[topofmurrayhill]

All I can say is if I could get my 1274 to look like those candles Alan posted, I'd be real happy..... I can't get mine to mottle for anything.......

FO! More FO!

If there is really something wrong with your wax you'll know it when you put in enough oil for it to come out of the mold wet and still no mottle. Until then, add more.

1 oz per lb of wax really is likely to do it. If you're having any trouble measuring by weight, it's OK to do it by volume. Use one of those little glass shot measures (not plastic!). If all you have is a regular measuring cup, then estimate about halfway from the bottom to the 1/4 cup mark.