essential oils or a blend? Advice please...

[JI]

Hello, I private label with an accupuncturist in town. She buys the scented soy candles from me and slaps her label on herself. She is really into aromatherapy and wants me to make her candles or melts with only her eos that she wouls supply to me. She administers these to her patients along with her accupuncture and other types of Chinese medicine. The eos are obviously a fortune. Her wholesale cost is $40/oz. I personally think it is cost prohibitive. I am going to make her some candles and melts and see how she likes those. For the prototype I will use 0.5 oz pp. I know it should be more, but cost wise for her.... the melts are more appealing to her because of the lower material cost etc.. what do you all think? But ideally she'd love candles. I am going to propose to her that I augment my existing fragrance oils with a spike of eos; and that way she can still sell candles that contain her eos. If I did this, what percentage eo do I add to the fo? Or if I just add 1 oz fragrance oil pp and drizzle on, say 2g or a few drops of eo? Sorry for the long note. Any advice is appreciated! Also, when adding eos, I assume I should still add at 170-180 degrees f?

Edited February 18, 2013 by JI

[Guest OldGlory]

When I first started my business I only made candles with EOs. I also sold rebottled individual EOs and EO blends. To me, it's a total waste to put EOs in candles. A lot of it burns off because you are using hot wax. Maybe you can pour one for her and let her decide if she really wants you to do this.

One option: Buy an unscented candle. Before lighting the unscented candle, take a small nail (construction nail) and poke a hole in the wax at least an inch away from the wick. Put a few drops of EO in the hole. When the melt pool reaches the hole it will slowly diffuse the EO.

In my opinion, the best way to diffuse EOs though is to use a warmer base, put water in the bowl, a few drops of EO in/on the water (most float). The warm water will slowly diffuse the EO, and it's a very pure way of releasing the beneficial aspects of the EO. You can use a tart warmer if it heats water to the point of slow evaporation. You can buy a tealight heated 'oil warmer'.

[iansmommaya]

Is she using doTerra or YL? Just curious.

[JI]

Do terra. Know anything about this?

[JI]

I agree wth old glory. With a hefty price tag it seems too much to use it all for candles. Esp when frag oils are good. Good idea about the water!

[Guest OldGlory]

I was pushed to be a doTerra rep - really hard sell, which I don't respond well to.

My history with essential oils is long. I have a hunch that the doTerra oils are not any better or any worse than the ones you buy from a reputable resourse - and yet they are double (or more) the price. Something about the hard sell makes me leary of the hype. Natural ingredients will ALWAYS vary in scent, intensity, quality, etc. I go back to the flavor of a cantaloupe. Sometimes they're super sweet, sometimes they're not, even if they came from the same variety of seed, grown in the same soil, picked at the same time. You just can't regulate natural products.

[iansmommaya]

Do terra. Know anything about this?

doTerra is a multi level marketing company that is being sued by young living. "Dr." Gary Young has been sued a number of times for his business practices http://www.quackwatch.org/11Ind/young.html. And imo, both companies promote uses of essential oils that are dangerous. I use essential oils, there are a good number of companies that I order from, none of them are yl or doTerra.

[JI]

To be honest I know nearly nothing about eos. Other than some can mimic hormones, which is not usually a good thing. I used to have some lovely lavender eo that I would put (sparingly) into my tile floor steam cleaner and it would make the kitchen smell heavenly as I steamed. I personally would never ingest them. The accupuncturist I work with, like I said, does alternative medicine etc. I wonder if she knows about the lawsuits? The thing that really surprised me is that she told me her wholesale price on these eos were $20/15 mL vial. 15 mL is a mere 1/2 oz. I thought this must be retail price. I would think wholesale price for practitioners would be like $10!

[JI]

I just read the Young story!! Talk about sketchy! He seems like he's peddling snake oil. I get really disturbex when I hear people pitch outrageous claims to people. Especially when someone in that audience has some sad, medical need.

At the market I attend, there is this lady who sells wheat grass. She gave me her pitch and said wheat grass cures everything from cancer to baldness! Can you really make claims like this? My father died of cancer and it was horrible. I don't think wheat grass would have helped. But I do believe that wheatgrass has beneficial things like fiber, vitamins etc. However, eating raw, it is difficult for our enzymes to break down all the cellulose. After all, we are not cows.

[JI]

Just want to clarify. I didn't mean eos are snake oil. I meant more people pitching things that supposedly cures you from horrible medical conditions etc. I have an old "tonic" bottle from the 1880s. It is made up of lots of alcohol and iron and some other herb. On the Victorian style label, it is listed as being able to help with everything from tuberculosis to fatigue to women's nerves to dropsy!! Give me a shot any day and I will feel better too! At least for a while. Like I say, "A glass of wine makes everything seem much more civilized!"

Edited February 20, 2013 by JI

[iansmommaya]

To be honest I know nearly nothing about eos. Other than some can mimic hormones, which is not usually a good thing. I used to have some lovely lavender eo that I would put (sparingly) into my tile floor steam cleaner and it would make the kitchen smell heavenly as I steamed. I personally would never ingest them. The accupuncturist I work with, like I said, does alternative medicine etc. I wonder if she knows about the lawsuits? The thing that really surprised me is that she told me her wholesale price on these eos were $20/15 mL vial. 15 mL is a mere 1/2 oz. I thought this must be retail price. I would think wholesale price for practitioners would be like $10!

If you work with a qualified aromatherapist, there are a few essential oils one could ingest. She is paying alot for marketing. YL and DT get there oils from the same place everyone else does (I am still not sure about the whole 'we grow our own' thing. There are four or five import companies for e.o.'s and a couple of companies that DO grow some of there own plants to distill into e.o.'s.

The bolded part above? If you are refering to lavender essential oil and prepubertal gynecomastia, It has been disproved.

I work as an herbalist and aromatherapist and can tell you the complementary systems do work to heal people. That does not mean that drinking lavender oil will cure warts (or whatever) people just like to sell things, it could be selling anything. Sorry you are experiencing the negative stuff with your person.

[JI]

I had read about the lavender and estrogen issue on scientific american, a couple years back. Since I am not a big user of eos, I don't keep up on news...but this is good to know. I met with the lady this afternoon, and at her request, made a small batch of melts. We used a 3% load which may not be enough...worked out to 0.5 oz pp. It was a little sticker shock for her since she is paying $40/oz. I hear you about the marketing costs etc but I do not believe it is in my place to tell her. Esp since I am not well versed in the ins and outs of eos. She did show me her large selection of these eos. And I have to admit that they were spectacular in fragrance. I just hope she likes it at a 3% load. There was one that smelled strange. Vertiver. Has anyone heard of this? I believe I saw it in a high end perfume once but never knew what it was.

[Guest OldGlory]

You are right about Vetiver being used in high end perfumes. In my humble opinion, it's like patchouli insofar as it's followers. You either like it or you don't. And I'm one who cannot stand it. Seriously stinks to me, and I can pick it out in a well blended perfume.

It sounds like you are using your head about moving forward with this client. Stay smart!

[iansmommaya]

Yeah, vetiver has its place. Some people really love it and I am glad it's available for them. It sounds like you are doing everything you can in regard to working with your (hopefully) wholesale account. I really wish you the best!

Edited February 20, 2013 by iansmommaya

[JI]

I thought the vetiver smelled like a cross btw mud and grass! Then I find out it is a grass...to each his own.

Update: after letting the melts sit for 24 hrs the accupuncturist put them in the warmee this afternoon. She emailed me and loves them. Apparently it was filling up the area and another room with the fragrance. So it looks like we will proceed. I am in a quandry.

Normally for wholesale pricing I have a minimum of 10 lbs order. 1 lb is four quarter pound baggies for me. There are five melts in a baggie. I packags them up in clear cellophane baggies with a twist and label. At this wholesale minimum, she would need to use up a king's ransom worth of eos. I am charging her for unscented melts, since she is supplying eos. You know packaging is cheap. So obviously wholesale cost on my end is low. What do I do? I cannot expect her to use all this $$ in eos to meet the wholesale minimum. Should I charge retail? I don't want to get the short end of the stick. I did charge her to make prototype, including my time and equipment, etc. She is very reasonable. I want to be nice, but I won't make much to charge her wholesale on a little 5 lb order. Is my minimum too high? 10 lbs is 40 bags. And using cheaper fragrance oils, cost on this minimum is not an issue. But not so with eos...

[Guest OldGlory]

You are a business woman. Don't bend over too far for people you want to remain in business with. It's asking for trouble down the road. But a little flexibility can be appreciated, especially in a new setting.

Before all the testing took place, did you mention your minimums? If so, is she now trying to get you to compromise?

Do you think you could possibly be happy with half the size in your initial order, and then she has to meet the minimums with subsequent orders? This would allow her to test the melts in her shop. You may not get a reorder.

Is your product being in her place of business going to help promote YOU?

Do you think she will ever reach a high enough volume to meet your minimums?

My minimum is 1 lb. I won't pour less than one lb per fragrance of anything because it's not worth my time. In the clamshells I use, one lb is 5+, so 6 clamshells per fragrance per order.

Lastly, what does your gut tell you? Gotta listen to your gut!

[JI]

Well I guess I should clarify my minimums. A minimum fragrance run would be 1-2 lbs for me. But if I give wholesale pricing, I can't just sell 1-2 lbs. I would like to sell at least 8-10 lbs. She has only bought candles prior and did not blink at the minimum order of 48 candles. What do yiu think?

[JI]

I normally would pour a minimum size of 1 lb for the molds etc. But since her eos are so bloody expensive and we are just making prototypes, I am being flexible and pouring mini batches of 1/4 pounds. It is a pain to make such tiny batches bc of pitcher washing etc. But I am charging extra for my time etc so I feel compensated. Today I am going down one last time to make four more prototypes of different eos. After this, assuming she is still happy, we will discuss the order next week. She has a busy practice of hundreds of patients. In addition to accupuncture, aromatherapy, inhouse yoga etc... so this is why I am in a quandry for the wholesale minimum. If she were working with fragrance oils which are cheap, I would not blink an eye at telling her a minimum order of 10 lbs. Since she is providing these pricey eos though, a 10 lb order would set her back $200 just in eos. You know, the cost of the actual tarts are relatively low. But maybe I shouldn't care about her eo price. She didn't blink an eye spending over $300 on candles. Should I stick to my guns on the 10 lbs, and just say "if you are going to buy less than it will be retail price...which I should add, isn't terribly much since I am charging her unscented. I normally just sell candles to wholesale accounts and have minimum orders that ranges from the 300-400 dollar range, depending on size. I only sell the melts at a farmers market and at candle parties. Is my melt minimum order of 10 lbs too high? Maybe it is? By the way, the product is private label and will not promote me. Also, sorry for my long messages. I certainly appreciate your time in reading and responding etc. Thank-you.

Edited February 22, 2013 by JI

[Guest OldGlory]

Even though it's private label, you can still get referrals from your client. It does have the potential to be a great way of promoting your business because the customers are experiencing your products while they are in the salon/therapy center.

I think I am understanding that making small orders of tarts really isn't worth your time, and that's understandable. If this client found someone else willing to make candles and tarts, with lower minimums, and sidestepped you completely, would you regret your decision to not make small orders of tarts for her? I'm betting you would want to keep her business.

If you have a good business relationship with her, I think you owe it to yourself, and in the long run to her, to have this discussion with her. This discussion about costs and minimums, and how you appreciate her business. Get her feedback, see things from her perspective. You don't have to make a decision at the moment, you can go home and think it over.

I have a wholesale client who sells 4 sizes of candles in 6 scents, and they put them in 7 stores. The smallest size candle pains me to have to pour it. It truly isn't worth my time. And when I pitched my candles to this company, I used this size as a sample with no intention of selling it. But the client really wanted to sell it. I personally wouldn't buy it because I think it's overpriced. So, I had to make the decision to suck it up, make the small candles in order to keep the sales of the 3 bigger sizes. That was more than 8 years ago. Sure, it's not perfect, but I am really grateful to have this account. People try to sell to this company every day, but I've developed a good relationship with them and they trust me, and so they keep buying my ordinary candles. To me, that's a win.

So quote her 'high'. Give her a bonus if she brings you other business, like a dozen free melts in one fragrance, or 10% off her next order, since this is the only way she can spread the word about your great products and awesome business practices. I bet she knows plenty of other business owners.

[JI]

Well she frequently goes to expos etc and is hooked into the whole holistic scene. I never really thought of possibilities of her referrals. I think I will just be frank with her about the wholesale minimum issue. She is a business woman too. She told me that she is very leary of companies that market pure eo candles when she sees a retail price on the candle as say only $15. It is like a comfort level for her knowing thst these tarts are tuly all eo. Even if I personally think that eos are outrageously high to put in wax as the only fragrance. But it doesn't matter what I think of eo pricing. It is all about what she wants. Referrals can potentially be valuble too. It is hard for me to understand how people can get so into eos and use them with everything, baser on pricing. But her clientel is different from me. I will keep you posted on how it goes. Thanks for your insight!

[Guest OldGlory]

Good luck! I hope it turns out for your benefit. And if not, being honest and direct with her was the right decision anyway. You will come away from the experience knowing more than when you started.

[Jeana]

The best results I've had with EOs in wax has been with melts or wickless candles.You don't have to do anything special when making them, just add the EO at the same time you would your FO. It isn't true that the scent burns off when you put the EO in the hot wax. I've had wickless candles I've heated over and over, and the scent still remains just as strong as when working with FOs. I did a fabulous orange/cedar, both are not expensive oils and you don't have to use very much to get a nice smell. There are so many great mixes you can do. Just do some research. The nice thing about doing wickless is that there is much less testing involved. The bad thing with doing wickless is you have to deal with the warmers. And have to educate customers how to use them for every sale.

[JI]

Jeana, True. I agree which is one reason why I pushed the wickless melts on her. I told her about the possible fuel smell with the citrus eos. But I am hoping this is going to be a non issue with melts (vs traditional candles). Based on my experience with melts, I have found the electric tart warmers to be more effective than the light bulb ones. Also, the accupncturist was asking me how long eo tarts would be good for, stored tight etc. I really don't know. I have melts I made 9 months ago with fragrance oils. I melted them the other day and they were still good. Any ideas with eo melts?

[Jeana]

It depends on the scent, just like with FOs, how long they will last. Make sure your blends are anchored well and they should last a very long time. I kind of have to take back that melts are better than candles. After I wrote my last comment I remembered some pillars I used to make when I was doing farmers markets. I did a Lavender and Fir Needle, and a different Euc Lavender blend. They were paraffin pillars. They made a room smell so spa like. I didn't get the fuel smell with these like other people do. They sold very well. I really love some of the orange blends in candles too but they are harder for me to wick for some reason. I didn't get the fuel smell with the orange either, as long as I had a good blend of other non-fuelish oils. You have to try things for yourself, your EO may burn fine in your wax mix. Get some experience with both melts and candles then you can choose which is better for you.

I dug out a basil peppermint soy candle I made about 3 or 4 years ago recently. I burned it and it is soooo strong it scented the whole house very quickly. It was in a jar with a lid so it preserved the smell. I am very scent sensitive which is why I prefer mostly EO candles, melts, and soaps for myself.

I like the warmers that use the tealights, that way you can sell your tealights too and you don't have to worry about if the electric components will wear out. The cost of the electric ones are too much upfront investment for me to sit on if they don't sell, so I stay away from them. At markets the tealight warmers outsell electric ones about 30 to 1. Of course this is in San Diego, I don't know about your area.

[JI]

I made a whole bunch of eo melts for her to try out. Bc of pricing we used 0.5 oz pp. Peppermint was great. Cypress fine though lighter. Citrus ones were disappointingly light. No fuel smell. Just too light. Perhaps if i had used 1 oz pp it would have been better. But at the $40/oz who can afford to? Another reason why i prefer frag oils.