Stella1952

LOL!! Are you petting and snuffling them at every opportunity? I have a terrible time keeping my mitts off new soapies - I just love them so much!

Those look GREAT!! Glad you had fun!! :-)

Oh WoW!! That's a Joseph's Coat candle if I ever saw one! Great job!! :-)

I add USA & UV inhibitor at the same time as the wax. I add the melted wax mixture to the FO & dye in the pour pot. HTH :-)

I want to try the 6.5 ounce tureen, the 11 ounce tureen and the 20 ounce tureen.They are very wide jars.

What is the inside diameter at the widest point? Without knowing that, we can't make any reasonable suggestions for you. What kind of wicks are you using now?

Do I need to poke holes in top at certain point? About how long after cooldown?

Yes. Some people wait for the candle to cool, then poke holes and do a second pour. The trouble with this is that palm wax solidifies so quickly that it doesn't get all the way down into a deep hole to fill the air pockets.

As KrazeKelly described above, I prefer to "wreck" the interior of the candles as the air pockets are forming - as soon as the candle forms a thin layer over the top. I do this several times as the candle is cooling, depending on the size/depth of the candle. The hot liquid in the center fills in the "air traps" easily. As the candle cools from the outside in, one "wrecks" closer and closer to the top until the wax is no longer liquid in the canter. I use the same method for palm pillars and votives as well.

This is the third method of dealing with air pockets. The idea here is to allow the top of the candle to cool enough (but is still liquid in the middle) so that one can turn it upside down, allowing the air bubbles to rise to the "top" which becomes the bottom. Because the air pockets are then at the bottom of the candle, the reasoning is that they will do not harm at the end of the candle. Of the 3 methods, this is my least favorite because it does not fill the air pockets, but simply relocates them.

186°F is on the cool side for pouring palm wax. It forms the showiest crystals when poured between 190°F-200°F. I think you'll be all right because palm container wax is more forgiving of lower temps than are pillar palm waxes.

I hope you had fun! Be sure to post photos when you can of your new candles! HTH :-)

I don't understand your point, Jeannie. I mitigate the air pockets that form in palm wax candles as they cool, not afterward. You have to go through the top of the candle to get to the inside where the air pockets are forming... which messes up the top, requiring finishing work, either by heat gun or second pour. If one does a second pour, one has to plan for that when figuring how much wax will be needed to fill the container. Since I don't do a second pour, opting to smooth the top by using a heat gun, I don't have to figure how much wax will be needed for a second pour. What is the issue here?

you are wrecking the tops only

No. I did not say that. I wreck deeply into the candle as discussed in the veggie wax area.

No cure time - it sticks instantly but you can move the wick base around a little to center if need be. I use wick bars to secure my wicks and am able to pull them nice & straight.

I'll give this a try on testers. I sure hope the bond can hold up to slight twisting of wicks and keeps the seal intact at the bottom of the wick tab. Thanks for the tip - I'm ALWAYS looking for an easier/better way that works... :-)

asking how your doing your palm tops with a heat gun had anything to do with weighing out the initial amount of wax including that needed for repours

My mention of using the heat gun to finish the top was in reply to your mention of second pours for palm wax containers after wrecking. I don't do second pours for palm wax containers - I use a heat gun to smooth the imperfections on the top caused by wrecking.

OK...I'm lost. How are you wrecking the interior so that the liquid wax in the center fills the voids when it is either liquid or solid? Once its solid to wreck there is no more liquid to fill the voids unless more hot wax is poured into the deep wrecked area....which is where the 2nd pour comes in if we are going deep into the candle to get relief from the voids. I don't do just 1" of the top. I go down into the container just as if its a pillar because I have found voids deep in there that causes the flame to go too high if they are missed.

Sorry you are lost. Wrecking begins as the surface cools and forms a relatively thin layer with air pockets and liquid wax underneath. Detailed information is in the veggie wax forum where we've previously discussed wrecking palm wax candles.

Apologies to the OP for the hijack.

Nice job, Paul! :-)

poking relief holes and then doing a second pour gives the best results. Heat guns just hide poorly made candles. Just because you can't see the problem doesn't mean it isn't still there.

I don't "poke relief holes" in palm wax. I find that is insufficient. I wreck the interior so that the liquid wax in the center completely fills the voids, not simply the first inch of a hole which is what frequently happens with repours, relief holes and palm wax. But since you've made lots and lots of these, you would know that.

Heat guns just hide poorly made candles.

Sometimes that is true, but many chandlers who use heat guns for minor touchups might take exception to your blanket condemnation of their use of a handy tool for touchups.

I've never used a heat gun in my life (for candles).

And you do not have to... It's a tool many people DO use but you are not required to do so.

Back to the topic of discovering "how much wax is needed to fill a container"... when I was learning, it didn't bother me at all to fill a container and weigh it. It still doesn't.

If, as Judy so quickly pointed out, it happened to be a type of wax which shrinks terribly and requires a repour, or as Jeanie mentioned, a palm wax repour after wrecking, I think I'd simply do the second pour and then reweigh the container. So what if I melt a little extra wax? I can remelt it again! It's not like it's spoiled!! By doing so, I discover my answer. It's not that difficult.

It's part of learning and once one figures out what works best for them, it's quite easy. There is no ONE WAY and many have contributed their ideas so hopefully the OP and others new to candlemaking can choose from different techniques to try until they find one with which they feel comfortable. :-)

Apparently you haven't made many palm wax container candles, SoW.

And this means what for those who do a 2nd pour and need extra wax initially weighed out?

If you CHOOSE to do a second pour for palm wax container candles, you will have to figure that out for yourself. I know I did.

Sorry I just can't stand using the double boiler method. Ick!! Never again.

Ditto. Been there, done that, cleaned up the last mess.

I really can't see having to store another piece of cookware that I don't use much.

If you are pouring THAT few candles, all your supplies should fit neatly into the Presto. :-)

Apparently you have not used much RTV (silicone rubber), Paul. *wink* It really is NOT a scary substance. It's the clear sealant used in aquaria; the stuff used to seal windows, sinks and bathtubs and hundreds of other construction and industrial uses. The liquid "leading" used for crafting fake stained glass windows is RTV. Carpenters, painters and plumbers could not live without it! It is a similar material to what is used to make silicone molds for crafting.

Unless someone has a particular sensitivity, this material is nearly as harmless as it gets. I'd freak out if the kids ate it before it had cured vs. if they ate Elmer's glue (PVC glue) or paste, but it is an extremely common and non-hazardous material in a wide range of applications and situations. Very few people have any health issues with it but most universally do not like the smell of acetic acid as it cures. It isn't as bad as the smell of paint drying, for sure! I actually DO have my nose right over the container as I am wicking it - just as I would with hot glue or adhesive tabs. It doesn't EVEN compare to standing over a simmering pot of pickling vinegar (acetic acid) and herbs - or, god forbid, crab & crawfish boil (VOCs) - now those are eye watering, nose running materials!! *faint*

BTW, one can use nail polish remover (acetone-based) to remove it from hands, under fingernails or on hard surfaces that wouldn't be harmed by the acetone but only when it is very fresh. Once it has set up and hardened, it has to be peeled or scrubbed off.

Which brings me to the involvement of kids... Kids like to *accidentally on purpose* get it on their fingers, hands and arms so they can sit and peel it like sunburn and throw the snibbles on the floor. Do not let kids play with a long, hardened string of it, because they will pop you with it like a rubber band. Gratefully, it's not quite as elastic as natural latex rubber and doesn't hurt as badly when they do this. Because children conveniently don't notice things, they can *somehow* get it on their hands or feet and track it all over the carpet or flooring on their way to the refrigerator where you will find it smeared on the door handle or near the bathroom light switch and toilet handle (if they remember to flush). Use around kids at your own peril. :laugh2:

This gets into the manufacturing process as well as the purpose of the test...

If I am testing a new container, wax or wick, after I have established which wick I want to use (method below), I conduct a powerburn test - light & burn from start to finish with no wick trimming, etc. If the candle performs well, it's a keeper. If the container becomes too hot or the wick soots excessively (I expect a minor amount of sooting during a powerburn), I go back a step and adjust the wick size or wick type. Once a candle system (ie. 8 oz. wide mouth soy candles - same ingredients and amounts and wicks each time) has passed the powerburn test, I usually do not do another one for that candle system.

When I test new ingredients (ie. resupplies of wax, FO, wicks, etc.), I set the test up with other known components and run a quick test (usually only 1 or two sessions) and compare the results with previous data for that particular component. I generally use a 4 oz. jelly jar for this type of test. If something is wonky, I know better than to push forward before testing more thoroughly to see if I have a bad batch of wax, wicks, FO, etc.

For general testing, I use a system of index cards which I preprint with a form to fill out so I won't forget to record the data I need. I have two main cards I use: one is the Batch card and the other is the Burn Test card. The Batch card records every component of the candles poured from that batch of wax: the glassware, date purchased, source, lot number if available; the wick type, source, date purchased; the FOs used, amounts, sources, dates of purchase; the wax used, date of purchase, source, lot number; and the same for any other ingredients, dye used, etc. I record the date, ambient temperature, humidity, time, temperatures to which the wax is heated, held, FO added, pour temp, etc. I assign a unique Batch number to each batch of wax I make. This number goes on the candle label.

After the candles are poured and cured for a week, I select one and start a Burn Test card which contains the following information: batch number, date, container, wax used, wick type/size, FO & amount used, ambient air temp, humidity, start time, stop time, net weight, RoC, wick height, HT, burn notes. It takes more than one card because of the number of burn sessions (staple together at the end before filing). I set a timer so I do not forget to extinguish the candles on time. The more methodical I am when testing, the more accurate my data will be and the easier it is to isolate any problem with my candle system. The test goes like this:

• Record batch number, FO & amount, wick type/size on each card (not necessary for each burn session)

• Record test date and ambient temp & humidity.

• Weigh the candle; record net weight (record RoC if this is a repeat test session)

• Trim the wick to 1/4"

• Record start time. Set the timer. Light the candle & burn for 1 hour per inch of inside candle diameter.

• Record flame height at 1 hour into the test.

• Evaluate & record HT near the end of the burn session

• Record stop time. Extinguish by dipping the wick back into the melt pool and straighten.

• Record all observations during the burn (wick sputtering, dancing, popping, mushroom, uneven flame height, etc.) in notes

• Allow the candle to COMPLETELY cool before relighting (several hours or overnight)

Repeat steps above until the candle self-extinguishes at the bottom of the container.

I test each fragrance and each different container from each batch as above. If I pour only one type of container and FO from a batch, I test one candle. If I pour 3 styles of containers and 4 FOs, a tester from each container and FO is tested. I prefer ganging my work so that I can reduce the amount of testing needed; ie. make only one style of container from a batch or only 1 style and FO from each batch. Of course, if a candle flunks a test, that particular FO or container goes back to the drawing board for more testing or goes onto the reject shelf.

HTH :smiley2:

Permatex Blue but will now switch to Red

http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_makers.htm

I have found that simply washing the container in HOT tap water will facilitate removal of the tab, especially if the sealer is used more sparingly (I used to make mine look like a wax seal on an envelope until I realized that less is better and just as effective).

Formaldehyde is most certainly in this product and is listed as an out gas on the MSDS, and if you have petroleum distillates, your going to have ketones

PLEASE read the MSDS carefully. The INGREDIENTS are listed in Section 2, Composition/Information on Ingredients. It does not appear there as an ingredient.

Formaldehyde is mentioned in Sections 5 (Fire Fighting Measures)

and 8 (Comments).

Both of those sections deal with either heating the uncured, liquid material to temperatures over 300°F or igniting them. We do neither when using this product as a wicktab adhesive.

Formaldehyde is a common natural compound formed from other chemicals when stuff burns or is heated (a chemical reaction caused by heat). It is NOT an ingredient of the sealant.

The biggest hazard from using this material is the release of acetic acid (the acid in vinegar) during the first 24 hours as the material cures. Once the material cures, no more acetic acid is released. It is used up by the chemical reaction which hardens the adhesive in much the same way that lye is used up in the chemical reaction of saponification of oils when making soap. Acetic acid can irritate sensitive airways in sufficient concentration. Having made homemade pickles and cleaned with white vinegar for years, I can assure you that the acetic acid released by using RTV to adhere wicks is a FAR lesser concentration than those normal kitchen activities. I don't remember ever needing a NIOSH respirator when doing so because I am operating in a well-ventilated, open area where there is no possibility of the fumes collecting to hazardous levels. Just because we can smell acetic acid (a VOC) does not mean it is at an unhealthy level in the environment.

The amounts and concentration of VOCs and chemical compounds involved are the key here. Formaldehyde is an INGREDIENT contained in some shampoos. Nail polish contains a lot of formaldehyde, yet I don't recall seeing people wearing NIOSH-approved respirators at nail salons or while polishing their nails watching television. I don't wear a respirator when wicking candles with RTV while watching television either. The FOs one uses in candles contain high levels of VOCs (volatile organic compounds) or they would have no scent. The dyes used (unless one is using EVO or other REACH compliant dye) contain petroleum distillates. When I drink a beer, I exhale ketones as a byproduct of the breakdown of the carbohydrates (alcohol & sugar) in the beer. Formaldehyde is produced in my liver when it breaks down the alcohol in the beer. It's a naturally occurring compound in our bodies and environment. So are ketones. The mere mention of these natural compounds on a label or MSDS sheet should not cause people alarm. Read the concentration levels and understand these are not terrifying chemicals - they are all around you and often produced right in your own body!

Use common sense. Protect your skin and don't snort the vapors from the tube. Protect your airway {ie. wear a respirator) if you are sensitive, have asthma, COPD, etc. or are using the product in a small, poorly ventilated area.

Salt bars usually contain equal parts (or slightly less) of salt to oils. They have a wonderful soft, creamy lather. Because of the salt, they set up super hard quickly, so one has to cut them very early or they can look rough as ladysj mentioned. I make mine in individual molds to avoid having to cut them. If you've never made these, hunt up a formula and try them!

Or Palm container if you are wrecking the tops which will require a repour as well.

I do not do a second pour when I wreck the tops of palm container candles. I use a heat gun to melt the top. HTH

Is there a good reason to use permatex in the finished candle? The stuff is kind of expensive and a little toxic, when compared to glue sticks. Methyl ethyl ketone, methyl ethyl ketoxime, formaldehyde and good number of other solvents meant for outdoor applications - albeit very small amounts in candle usage.

I'm just wondering if using glue sticks causes problems down the road or during application that outway the cost and problems of permatex?

While the volatile organic compounds are far less in high temperature hot glue, the ingredient list of hot glue sticks is not necessarily benign. Its main disadvantage is loss of bond strength when exposed to high temperatures and it is not the best choice for high heat applications.

Below is the link to the MSDS for Permatex High Temp RTV RED Silicone Gasket Maker :

http://www.permatex.com/documents/msds/01_USA-English/81160.pdf

I did not find Methyl ethyl ketone, methyl ethyl ketoxime, or formaldehyde listed specifically on the label as ingredientsor or in the MSDS. This is a silicone rubber RTV adhesive. While it does contain some petroleum distillates, and releases acetic acid during curing (24 hours) none of those compounds are present in the cured sealant. It is listed as non-flammable and non-toxic. When cured for 24 hours, it is chemically inert, as with most silicone rubber materials.

This is the link to the handling sheet:

http://www.permatex.com/documents/tds/Automotive/81160.pdf

The advantages to this RTV sealant are many:

It is rated for applications up to 600°F - which is in excess of the temperature at the bottom of most correctly wicked containers.

It does not soften nor lose bond strength as the temperature rises; this assures a seal to prevent the wick from sucking liquid fuel (wax) from under the wick tab (which defeats the self-extinguishing safety feature of wick tabs). This also prevents the wick from moving.

High temp hot glue guns heat to approximately 380°F to liquify the glue. The glue itself melts at a much lower temp and softens at around 165°F. When it softens, it loses its adhesion and sealing properties which can allow wax to be drawn into the wick by capillary action. In worst case scenario, the glue can release and allow the wick tab to wander to the side of the container (via convection currents in the hot liquid wax).

Below is a photo of such a failure: This is a correctly wicked palm wax candle whose wick tab was secured with high temp hot glue. As you can see, the high temp hot glue adhesive failed completely. Because the wick could suck wax underneath the wick tab, it did not self-extinguish at the top of the tab, which allowed temperatures to rise higher than is acceptable at the end of the container. The loss of the bond allowed the wick to become completely detached from the bottom of the container and wander over to the side of the jar. You can see the excess soot above the wick in the photo (the black stuff on the opposite side is testing data). It could have been worse: the container could have shattered due to thermal shock had it been burning in a cooler environment...

ONE failure of this type has the potential to cause property damage, injury or fire, especially if a customer is not careful to extinguish the candle at approximately 1/2" from the bottom of the container. The purpose of using a self-extinguishing wick tab is to prevent this scenario even if a customer doesn't pay strict attention. I have not had a single failure with Permatex; however, I have had several with high temp hot glue (none quite as dramatic as the one in the photo only because I extinguished them).

I think the extra cost and bother is easily justified by the extra safety provided by the Permatex silicone sealer. HTH

Looks like a cup of coffee with cream swirling around just before stirring! VERY pleasing! Great job!!

I think the pale blue is very pleasing! I, too, adore salt bars!

Lookin' good. If the HT is acceptable, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

BTW, that IS a VERY sharp looking container. Very classy & upscale appearance. :-)

I use high-temp hot glue for testing purposes only. If the wick moves near the end, it doesn't affect the important part of my testing. I don't pull wicks when testing containers as the test data is skewed because conditions in a container change as the wick melts down into the container. This does work for pillars, however, so long as the top is leveled after the wick is changed. Red or Blue permatex is fine - I use the red but have also used the blue. Doesn't matter so long as it's rated for high temp applications. I use a single edge razor blade to remove wick tabs from the bottom of containers and tins. I have learned it doesn't take as much adhesive as I originally used. Only a dot of the permatex is needed to seal the wick hole and adhere the tab to the container. It doesn't have to ook up all around the tab to seal and hold the tab securely.

THAT WILL NOT WORK if you are using a 2 pour paraffin like 4786. That wax shrinks as it sets up and you may need an additional 15-20% to top it off.

Yep. I don't use waxes that shrink or require second pours so that's not a factor for me. Your mileage may vary.

Keep us updated on how this one goes - I have a feeling things may work out well for this one by the end of the container. Good luck! :-)