Stella1952

I was doing a test burn of the tumbler with the LX 24 this morning, and after 45 minutes half of the jar was black around the top

Without a photo and more information, it's really hard to say much... "Black around the top" can mean a lot of things... was it black from the MP all the way to the top? Or was there just some soot around the rim? How far down in the container had the candle burned? You didn't notice any of this sooting before 45 minutes had passed? Was the wick trimmed to 1/4" prior to the test? Is the soot more on one side than the other? Did the flame flicker or dance? How high was the flame? Was the candle burning in a draft from above?

What FO are you using? Are you sure you are using 6%? For example - 1 weighed ounce per pound (16 weighed oz.) of wax is 5.88%... How are you measuring your FO? Is your FO a "normal" FO or is it a concentrated one? How was the HT when all this sooting occurred? How is the appearance of the candle?

"Wisps of smokes also mean soot deposits" is a pretty self-explanatory statement. If you see wisps of smoke, there's a real good chance you'll also see more soot deposits. The wisps are carbon particles...

Swell? Never heard of soy wax swelling?

Absolutely. This is one of the undesirable crystal phases of soy wax - similar but not as dramatic as cauliflowering which looks like brains. This is WHY mitigating frosting is so important - not just because of some OCD need for good looks. This is why "embracing the frosting" is a really bad idea. In storage, a candle can swell until it appears that there was never a wick. Melting the candle slightly resolves the issue.

Container soy candles DO have a shorter shelf life than other types of wax. I won't sell an older soy candle for this reason. I also won't leave a wick too long just in case someone buys one and lets it sit on their shelf for years before burning it... Best to find out WHY that candle's crystal form changed and solve that problem, especially if the candle was recently poured. It usually takes a year or more for this to happen. When a swollen soy candle is burned, the wax quickly takes up less space (the air space between the crystals vanishes as the wax melts) and a wick that's a little too long becomes very much too long and a torch.

Test what's that? JK!!!! I test every candle I make.

Good for you! :highfive: Nice job!

Wow. How did you manage to test the wicks for all those containers?

Also just read something about how false trace can cause this...

The wonderful thing about making soap is that when *something* happens, it can nearly always be saved. I have not had to throw out a batch... yet.

Since you figured out what you did wrong quickly, you did exactly what I would have done - scrape the sh*t into the crock pot, fix what I did wrong, and go from there. Several of the *saves* actually turned out looking better than before the batch went south on me...

I ran the "recipe" through SoapCalc and the water/lye ratio looks wonky to me... like not enough water...

Very pretty candle!!

Melt pool was not completely uniform wit the first one but 4 wicks just didn't look right, so I stuck with the three.

Don't feel like the Lone Ranger! I can't stand double wicks and hate quadruple wicks, but I LOVE the look of 3 wicks in WIDE (over 4") candles. There is something about the look of a triangle that appeals to me and it seems far more balanced, heat-wise IME.

Please post some pics when you test this candle - I'd love to see!

I agree with Chris and other "trimmers." I want people to at least SEE and start with the correct length for the wick... No amount of warning or number of warning labels will ever make this a safe practice, no matter how much I love the look of curly wicks!

I DO love the curly look and have used curled wicks on decorative fru-fru occasionally, but I'll never sell a candle with a wick that isn't trimmed to the length I recommend. I'll reserve using curly wicks for fire-starters - 'cause that's exactly what they are. JMHO

I have no idea, but I think it looks kinda cool...

Wisps of smoke also mean soot deposits... Try a different wick, especially if this happens with more than one or two FOs. Some FOs are more of a problem than others and you can simply not use the ones which do this; but if it's happening a lot, try a different wick. Your FO amount is well within reason - I wouldn't change that, personally. Try a CDN 14 in that container.

I love palm wax pictures!! All of the candles look okay at this point, but you really will need to burn them all the way down to see which wick give you the best results in that particular FO. There are a very few FOs I have to wick down to CDN 10, but most work very well for me with a CDN 12. If I were running wick tests with different type or size wicks, I would use the same FO & dye in each candle for data consistency.

I'd like to add that I always let palm wax cure for a week before testing for two reasons: first, to let the FO cure, which is important in veggie waxes; but the more important reason is that palm wax crystals are relatively soft and fragile when newly poured. The wax hardens considerably from day 1 to day 7. I wait because that gives me the most accurate test and is most similar to the candle that a customer will be burning.

I hope you'll continue posting pics of later test sessions. As I said, at this point, there's really not much that can be ascertained. The action will happen later on. Do weigh the candles before each burn so you have good RoC data. It will become more important as the candles burn. HTH & have fun!! :-)

Test both and see how it works for you! :-)

For me, if a container is too hot to handle, it's too hot to sell. This is a very good rule of thumb and predictor of the incidence of thermal failures in glassware. If it's too hot for you to handle, it has entered the area where you can't touch it to see HOW hot it is and a customer sure isn't gonna lay a thermometer on the glass to see... nor should they have to do so. I don't care if it's 165°F or 200°F - both are too hot for me to handle easily and are more likely to become problematic. Case closed IMHO.

Comparing the temperatures of an oil lantern and a container candle are like comparing apples and asparagus. The container candle has no handle nor way for it to be moved OTHER than to grasp it.

Customers don't see candles as a fire hazard

Au contraire, Pierre. You need to read up on WHY tarts, melts and flameless candles have become so popular with customers!!! People DO view candles as a fire hazard. Many will not have a candle in their home for this reason. Doesn't matter if I think that's a ridiculous load of hooey - it's a documented marketing fact.

But, hey - carry on with making those home fingerprint removers...

Those look very pretty! :-)

have you found that USA and similar products can influence shrooming or have found they are more of a direct influence on frosting and appearance type issues?

Bart, I haven't noticed that the USA I use causes or reduces shrooming.

It certainly stands to reason that it could have an effect since the causes of mushrooming have to do with the wick not burning efficiently due to a number of reasons: incombustable or uncombusted materials in the wax (or anything added to the wax) or a wick that isn't burning the wax efficiently (either too quickly or not quickly enough), too hot or not hot enough, a wick stance that's too straight - all can contribute to carbon building up at the tip of the wick.

Since you are trying to establish a foundation of knowledge for C3, it makes good sense that you might wish to wait before deciding to try any additives.

Sure CDs will work! The treatment appliedd to CDNs is arguably more applicable to palm wax than it is to soy. The wicking is very similar, since, after all, the wicks are identical except for the treatment soaked into CDNs. Try both CD 16 & CD 18 to see which one works best for you.

The tin is 8 oz with a 3 inch diameter.

I know you don't use them, but if you decide to test CDs & CDNs, try a CDN 12-14 for that tin. HTH & have fun! :-)

Beautifyl!! Your blouse and the soap matched, too! You're getting to be a pro at this video stuff!! :-)

All of the above. :-) If there is no selection for that, ask your accountant which classification would be most advantageous for you. I tend to think if you are just selling stuff that you make (ie. no resale products), then manufacturer would be most appropriate. Many wholesalers and retailers sell products made by others. They are resellers.

I have tested other veggie oils as "appearance" additives instead of, and in addition to, USA (distilled monoglycerides). There are a couple I have found that worked as well as USA in helping to control frosting and promoting smoother texture and tops. The best results I got were when I combined them (USA + the oil), but those results were only slightly better than using the oil alone.

Rather than beat your brains out looking for USA, I suggest you experiment with small amounts of some common soaping oils to see which help. I will say that the CO I tried (refined, bleached, deodorized, 72°F MP) was a flop at any amount. When I test, I start with 1 teaspoonful/PP of the oil and go up to 1 Tablespoonful/PP. If it doesn't make any difference within that range, try another one. Don't assume that just because a refined product doesn't work (like the CO I tested) that an unrefined one or a fractionated product might not have different results and vice versa.

I made testers in 4 oz. containers (3 oz. wax). If the additive seemed to do well with that size, I tested again in a larger container. I used no dye and 1 oz. of a FO whose properties are well-known to me in my wax. Melt, pour temps & wicking, all well-established for the containers and wax I'm testing. That way, since I am using everything that is a "known quantity" to me, any changes in CT, HT or appearance are due to the additive. HTH & good luck!! :-)

Sorry Stella, I didn't word that last post correctly. Is USA something I should add? Having read you say C3 has it already, then the answer would be no??? CO I could try, would that be an idea??

Before you think about using additives, first make sure your pouring techniques are sound.

When I say that C3 & 464 already contain USA, I mean they contain an ingredient similar to it. USA is distilled monoglycerides and is available via the food industry. Very few suppliers carry it in the US and I have no idea what's available to y'all Down Under. If you find some, BE SURE it is Universal SOY Additive and not Universal Additive for paraffin. Very different products. I personally add additional USA to C3. I use 1 Tablespoonful per pound. I had never found CO to be useful in either mitigating frosting or any other claims for its use. This does not mean that unrefined CO might not work better - my tests were run on Louana 72, a refined, bleach, deodorized CO with a MP of 72°F readily available in grocery stores here.

I meant that I didn't like the white dry mould looking bit on the hangup when the candle resolidified, but I could live with it because I know it doesn't so anything. But I don't think friends or potential customers would like it.

First, it isn't mold - it is frosting. Read more about soy wax and its polymorphic properties. The crystal formations of soy wax can vary - which ones are present makes a huge difference in the appearance of the wax (ferny frosting, powdery dry white frosting, cauliflower appearance similar to brains, spongy, dull, grainy appearance, smooth and shiny as a baby's butt, etc.). HOW you handle C3 makes all the difference in its appearance. Soy wax is very temperature sensitive. Read up here in the veggie wax forum about how to handle C3 in terms of melting temp, pouring temp, temp to add FO, containers, etc. It all matters and can have a direct bearing on how good (or not-so-good) your product's appearance is.

The HT is soft, as in it isn't constantly filling your nostrils every second, but you get wiffs of it and you can smell it. Gee I hope that makes sense...lol

Ignoring the possibility of candle nose (a condition where your nose temporarily "ignores" a fragrance because it has been overexposed to it), or that you may be hovering directly over the candle trying to sniff the fragrance, if you walk out of the room for about 10 minutes, then reenter the room, you should be able to smell the candle's fragrance quite easily upon entering the room. You should not have to hover over the candle nor should you have to wave the fumes toward your face to catch a whiff.

The candle fragrance should fill the area pleasantly. Understand that when trying to judge HT, the room should not be drafty (ceiling fans, wall air conditioners, central heating/air conditioning vents blowing, etc.) nor should there be any environmental filtration (electrostatic or activated carbon air filters). The air does not have to be absolutely still, but use a reasonable amount of common sense. Please don't expect a tealight to fill an area the size of the lobby of a major hotel! Again - common sense...

If you can't be sure your poor nose hasn't become immune to the fragrance (between pouring, waiting for the candle to cure and snuffling it every time you see it, then lighting it...), ask others who enter your home if they can smell the candle. You can also give a tester to a TRUSTED friend or family member who has a reasonable amount of good sense and ask them how it smells at their house...

From your description and what I see of the candle, I am leaning toward thinking you may need to wick up. IF that is a 6 oz. deep tin (you didn't mention the inside container dimensions, which matters), and IF you are using 1 oz. FO PP, I use a CDN 10 in those, if that helps.

I am getting variance with CDN's

The CDNs I have bought here in the USA have been very consistent in my candles, but since the OP is from your neck of the woods, my experiences may not apply, so I'm going to bow out of more in-depth wick comments because I know y'all are having local issues with FOs & wicks...

I also like to read a few sources before I try anything, because there is A LOT of misinformation out there.

Yep.

I like to read up at manufacturers' sites whenever I can. Some have a lot of information about their products (surprisingly, some have nothing).

In addition to the manufacturers, wick distributors have lots of information about wicks (WicksUnlimited, WickIt, Premier, etc.).

I read supplier sites, too, but some of those have unreliable info, so caveat emptor.

Candlemaker's websites are often the least reliable read for quality information.

Discussion forums contain wonderful information as well as junk.

Bottom line is that you have to be able to weigh information based upon whether it can be independently verifed, because people often state their opinions and beliefs which may or may not be accurate, based on lore or even completely fact-free. I realize that if I am reading information from a commercial website, they may slant their point of view toward the products they manufacture or sell - that's just common sense - so I try to look beyond that kind of bias. Understand that there is a ton of copy/paste info out there. Some, like stuff copied from an industry organization such as the National Candle Association, is designed to be repeated (ie. warning instructions, etc.). Other information often found on seller's websites is not well vetted and some is total and complete manure. The internet is rife with rumor - one person says something and a hundred others repeat it until it's accepted as fact when it really is NOT fact, but simply one person's opinion. The same holds true with people sharing experiences. For example, one may make a statement based on my experience that few people share, so one size does NOT fit all!! Beware of believing information simply because someone of notariety says so or it's on their website. Martha Stewart springs immediately to mind... or a celebrity who promotes some "pure, natural" kind of candles... Look for photographic evidence of claims to illustrate and support the text; look for reliable scientific sources as references. Beware information that contains few or questionable citations that support that point of view. Lastly, rules of life apply: if it seems too good or fantastic or nutty to be true, it probably is.

Good luck & have fun learning! :-)

175° is way too friggin' hot to hold!!

Yep. That's what I go by, too. Common sense.

I haven't had any issues with it going rancid quickly. I buy mine at the grocery store because I don't use very much and can't justify ordering a lot and paying shipping. It's great for salad dressings, massage oils & bath oils, too! Nice and light!

I don't like it, but would be able to live with it for sure, but if I give a candle as a gift or sell one I really don't think this is going to endear them to my product.

Do you know what USA is? Why would anyone object to your using it in a soy candle? It's already an ingredient of C3 and GW 464... You could also experiment with veggie oils and see which one helps the texture of your candle - some wax manufacturers use cottonseed oil, some use palm oil, etc. Remember that there is a finite amount of oil any wax will hold (and you want to leave room in the wax for your FO), so start with 1 tsp. and try not to use over 1 Tablespoonful per pound of wax.

How's the HT? If it isn't very good, you may need to wick up one size. Sorry I can't help with HTP wicks - I use CDNs & CDs.