Stella1952

Candybee, those are LOVELY!! You are really getting GOOD at soapmaking!!! :-)

just wondering if anyone superfats higher and what your results have been?

Do you mean just for this particular formula or in general? I superfat at 8% generally and have gone as high as 15-20% for special formulas (salt bars, etc.)... I like playing with formulas using SoapCalc to see how changing amounts, percentages, etc. affect the numbers. Sometimes I use the same formula and just vary the water or superfat to see what happens... So far, no explosions! :-)

PS I love to use grapeseed oil in formulas. It brings a lot of conditioning qualities to the soap. Doesn't take a lot...

That is weird frosting then. I know with the coloured candles and the frosting that gives, but this is just around the tops of the hangup. The same as someone posted yesterday with their jar pictures( trying to remember which post it was).

The wax is Naturewax C3 with no additives except the FO.

When hangup is thick or doesn't go away quickly, the wax there is subjected to temperatures and an environment in the range that encourages the undesirable types of crystals to grow. This is a cosmetic issue and does not affect the burn or throw of the candle. If you don't like it, you may be able to discourage it by using some additives to help tame the polymorphism. HTH :-)

Also, what is the white stuff that dries on the sides after a burn? It looks like white mould. Is this a good or a bad thing, cause it looks horrid.

I'm assuming you are using a soy wax (not a parasoy). That is frosting. If you search the forums uin the veggie wax forum, you will find a ton of information on "frosting" and how to prevent it. It is worse in some soy waxes than others, but all soy wax is polymorphic and all will frost, more or less, depending on how the wax is handled.

Keep burning your test candle. The hangup should catch up by the end. HTH :-)

This article has more info about ASTM certified candle glass, and the kinds of testing the glass containers must pass: http://www.eca-candles.com/pdf/World...ker%20Moss.pdf

GREAT DISCUSSION of ALL the ASTM standards for our industry!! All candlemakers who do not already have a copy of this pdf should download it, READ it and keep it handy for reference. It give a keen insight into the kinds and manner of testing needed to comply with due diligence.

From page 5...

ARE THE STANDARDS MANDATORY?

• ALL STANDARDS ARE VOLUNTARY AT THIS TIME

– THERE IS A PETITION (submitted by NASFM) TO THE CPSC TO MAKE THE

STANDARDS MANDATORY

• WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BE A VOLUNTARY STANDARD?

– VOLUNTARY MEANS IT IS UP TO YOU TO FOLLOW THE STANDARDS OR

NOT, HOWEVER

– IF ONE OF YOUR CANDLES FAILS AND CAUSES PROPERTY DAMAGE OR INJURY, THE LAWYERS WILL CITE THESE STANDARDS AS THOUGH THEY ARE MANDATORY,

THEREFORE IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT YOU BECOME FAMILIAR WITH AND FOLLOW THE REQUIREMENTS OF THESE STANDARDS

Page 9-10 deal with warning labels for votives and tealights - a separate classification from container candles.

Page 11 starts requirements for glassware - thermal shock resistance.*

Page 12 deals with the polariscope requirements for examining the glassware after annealing for invisible stress within the glass structure.

Page 22 starts requirements for fire safety. The succeeding pages have some dramatic photos of what constitutes failures.

Thanks for posting this link again! :smiley2:

VERY SHOWY!! Those should help land MANY new accounts!!

When I first saw the title, I thought it said "Wedgies" LOLOL

I think there's something in the dye that breaks down plastic & rubber after a while.

Yep. The rubber squeeze droppers on mine degrade. Even plastic dropper bottles ooze *something* which eventually obscures the label... Only solution is to make more candles and use it up more quickly!!

I've not tried color blocks but I have used the Reddig-glo dye chips on occasion... I still like my messy liquid for mixing custom colors, but the blocks would be more stable and have a longer shelf life with no ooze or spewing... :undecided

I could only see 2 types listed

I should have mentioned it - it's not grouped with the other C1 & C3 stuff... Scroll all the way down, under their feathering palm wax (which I've never seen...) and you'll see:

NatureWax® Products for Export (Heat-treated Pallets) Product Technical Data Sheet Material Safety Data Sheet C-1 Container Wax Flake 13C2020CT_TDS 13C2020CT_MSDS C-3 Container Wax Flake 13C2040CT_TDS 13C2040CT_MSDS

I don't know what a "heat-treated pallet" is...??? All I have ever seen is the pretty white flakes in cases... Have never seen any of the other stuff offered... I think samples of the Elite-300 are available by contacting Elevance. It's reputed to be their answer to NGI's Ecosoya Xcel... Might be worth testing...

I remember that when Elevance first took over from Cargill, there was a really UGLY bad batch that gave some members fits. It didn't look good at any time, however... I think coconut or island girl posted a pic of it melted in the pot that looked like it had been used for fried chicken or something... Supposedly that was an overheated lecithin issue or something and they got it resolved...

I think you have serious problems that warrant medical intervention.

Your personal insults continue. I DO have a slice on my thumb that's looking angry this morning, but I think I can handle it without professional intervention. Thanks for your concern.

I have all kinds of repurposed kitchenware I use in my candle room. I have a round electric skillet for keeping pour pots warm, warming small amounts of wax in votive molds, and for prewarming FOs in 1-2" of water (not direct heat!); I have a very old warming tray that I use to warm containers (thin towel under, thicker towel over); I have 3 Prestos; a heat gun; an electric griddle I use for finishing pillar & votive bottoms. Omaha steak styrofoam coolers come in handy for cooling palm wax pillars in cold weather. Some plastic buckets (OxyClean) with sand in them for making tilties; cookie racks and a couple of old oven & refrigerator racks for cooling containers...

On my want list:

a big electric roaster for various purposes, including warming containers.

a microtorch for spot touchups

a microwave so I will leave the one in my kitchen alone

a restaurant-style heat lamp

I don't have a need for a hot plate 'cause I don't heat wax on direct heat. HTH & have fun getting thrown out of the kitchen!!

ChrisR, why don't you share some of the worthy discussion YOU find on the internet instead of terming it all "crap" and attacking others who post differing viewpoints. Remember that you are writing on the internet - is what you are writing "crap" also? You and Horsescents could also try sticking to the TOPIC which was how much wax is recommended to leave in a container candle - NOT votives, NOT tealights and NOT birthday candles. While you may have opinions, some people choose to recommend the suggested standards for the industry, which have already been mentioned, cited and linked. So the rest of this is just arguing for the sake of argument. The OP's question was very simple.

Horsescents, why should we design a candle to burn down to 1/4" when the recommended safety guideline is to extinguish at 1/2"? Is that discussion necessarily appropriate to this thread?

Since you "called me out" on my use of the term "hybrid" for votives and tealights, Chris, and were too lazy to look it up for yourself, and seemed to want to make a big, hairy deal out of my statement, here's a source for you...

Candlescience says "Votives are a bit of a hybrid between pillars & containers."

It's Stella who swoops on everyone else trying to ram her fanatical candle paranoia down everyone's throats. If you and Stella want to use 9.00 mm wick assemblies on your container candles, that's fine with me and everyone else.

Horsecents, considering the number of fires caused yearly by candles, it's simple responsibility to remember that we are manufacturing products which use an OPEN FLAME. My "fanatical candle paranoia" (some might call it "concern") is shared by many responsible candlemakers AND customers, particularly any of the over 15,000 people who experience a house fire yearly due to candles, 85% of which could have been prevented by safe use of candles. The OTHER 15%, BTW, happened on OUR WATCH - improperly manufactured candles. That's why melts have become so popular: many people don't want an open flame in their homes, apartments, dorm rooms. Whether safety is important to YOU or not, it's a big deal in our industry and to customers... If pointing out safety issues saves ONE PERSON from a fire, it's time well spent in writing and reading about it.

Where are YOU coming from?

Apparently you are ignoring Jeannie's reply in Post #6 above relating the "whys" behind her choice of using a longer wick tab, in favor of arguing with me. YOU brought up the subject of tealights which were NOT part of the OP's discussion. As I said previously, it is common sense that a candle which is only a little over 1/2" in height would NOT be part of the prohibition about CONTAINER candles. It's a freakin' TEALIGHT, not a container candle. There IS a difference whether YOU wish to recognize it or not, in your desire to attack statements made by other members.

I have tried FOs from Nature's Garden, CS, JS, Peaks, KY and TCS. Also a varity of wax - 415, 444, ECO PB, TCS blended, feathered palm wax, 4794. I have mixed waxes, put different FOs percentanges in. But to no avail. Do I need to use additives? Do I need to buy more expensive FO's? My main goal is to have a yummy, great smelling candle or melt. Advice, please!!!

Sorry, but you gave us nothing much to go on... One thing you didn't mention was wicks. A successful candle is a system - all the different components work together to make a pleasing product. If any one of those things are off, the candle falls short.

When you reply, please choose ONE wax to discuss because there's a lot of difference among the ones you posted. Tell us the details of what you did with that wax from melting to pouring to lighting the tester - the temp to which the wax was melted, the temp you added how much FO, the temp at which you poured, how long you cured the candle, what diameter/style container you used and the wick type and size.

Do you even make votives & tealights?

Yes, in fact, in the old thread below you can view some of the votives I made out of scraps. Enjoy!

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?101245-What-do-you-do-with-your-little-bits...&p=955857#post955857

Where in your cut & pasting have you come across that votives & teas are 'hybrids', cause in the 13 - 14 years of candlemaking have I ever seen them referred to as that?

Do your own homework, Chris. I do mine. That's why I CITE when I state an opinion. You call it copy/paste - where I come from, it's called supporting your points with other sources of information so people don't think one has been fishing around in their rectum for ideas.

I read this about wicks being like a straw: "When the wick is sucking up more wax then it can burn properly, it forms a mushroom. Take the wick size down smaller until the mushrooming stops. It’s accepted that 95 percent of mushrooming problems are corrected by going to a smaller wick."

Don't know if true, but it makes sense to me.

When a wick is burning inefficiently, bad stuff can occur... From what I have read and experienced, the size of the wick is not the whole story. Incomplete combustion, which can occur for several reasons, seems to be the culprit.

From CandleWic...

http://www.candlewic.com/candle-wicks/wick-science.asp

"If there isn’t enough oxygen and too much vapor the flame is going to release the soot and not fully combust causing the wick to bloom (mushroom)."

From Candle Cauldron's Dictionary of Terms...

http://www.candlecauldron.com/dictionary.html

"Carbon mushrooms form at the top of a candle's wick, caused by incomplete combustion. This can be caused by the type of wick, and cooler burning additives like petro, crisco & some scented oils."

Wicks Unlimited says this...

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/burn_issues.php

"Mushroom Capping Mushrooming occurs when there is an overabundance of wax fuel to be combusted, creating a collection of partially reduced molecules which are unable to reach the flame, combine with oxygen and complete the burning process.

As a result, the incompletely combusted material falls back onto the wick, and through molecular attraction, builds up as a carbon cap on the end of the wick.

This excess fuel can be caused by an oversized wick providing more wax to the flame than can be burned; or the wrong type of wick in general."

NGI (manufacturer of EcoSoya) says this...

http://www.ngiwax.com/resources/qa.html

""Mushrooming" is carbon build-up on the wax when a candle is burnt. The main factors contributing to "mushrooming" are the choice of wick (type and size), the fuel (wax) and what the fuel is made of. EcoSoya® soy waxes burn exceptionally clean. Adding scent and dye to the wax "contaminates" the combustion process of a candle. Scent and color are non-fuel sources that can collect in the wick creating the "mushroom" or carbon ball. Changing the wick, scent and dye combination will correct this problem. We recommend only using NON-cored wicks."

Another thought regarding the CDNs - the wick wax may make some difference... If you have a choice, perhaps you might test to see if it has a bearing on the burn of the containers you are testing. Are CDs available to you? Some folks like those better than CDNs in certain applications... doesn't hurt to try some, especially if you are having trouble dialing in exactly what you want with CDNs.

I am curious as to whether the C3 Elevance is supplying Down Under is the same as the product here. I noticed on their website that there are three C3 waxes listed... I wonder if there is any difference in them, especially since seeing the difficulty Richard is having with it... I swear - it looks like a different wax to me!!

http://www.elevance.com/resources/data-sheets/

That carbon ball on the pink candle would near qualify for our new Australian Carbon Tax!

ROTFLMAO!!

Stella is totally wrong.......tea lights and votives are considered container candles

Nope. They are considered hybrids between pillars and container candles. While either can be poured directly into a container, most are molded. Tealights can be removed from the metal cups to burn in tealight holders. They are similar to container candles, in that they are designed to be burned in a close-fitting container, but are not considered to be "container" candles.

How YOU pour your tealights, Chris, and what you tell your customers about your products is your business, but your mileage may vary. One size doesn't fit all.

There is much recent discussion (in light of all the product recalls of tealights due to fire hazard) that tealights poured into plastic containers should NOT be burned in close-fitting containers because the heat is more concentrated, leading to melting of the polycarbonate cups or ignition of the entire tealight.

If you're saying that using a 6 mm high wick assembly is a slam dunk for the plaintiff you are wrong, because the industry does not recommend to chandlers to use the 9 mm, 1/2" high wick assemblies in all container candles. The industry DOES recommend that the CUSTOMER not burn the last 1/2" of wax, because the CUSTOMER does NOT KNOW if the wick is securely attached to the bottom of the jar, or what the FO load is, or whether the container is approved candle glass, etc.

Below is a link to safety wick tabs manufactured by the Stimpson division of Wicks Unlimited.

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/safety_lengths_clips.php

and extra length safety wick tabs where 1/2" = 12.7 mm...

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/extra_safety_lengths_clips.php

You can argue until the cows come home. Common sense would suggest that the 1/2" guideline doesn't apply to candles which are only 1/2" thick. I don't think the guidelines apply to birthday candles either... but we weren't talking about any of those, were we? We were talking about normal container candles for which the guidelines are clear: they should be extinguished when 1/2" of wax remains.

Remember that the NCA is created and funded by and for the candle industry. Their job is to place as much responsibility for safety hazards on the consumer as possible and to protect the interests of manufacturers. A trial attorney in a product liability lawsuit is there for the plaintiff, meaning it is his/her job to place as much responsibility for safety on the manufacturers as possible. What is FAIR lies somewhere in between.

Me? I'm always going to err on the side of safety when making candles so that if I ever DO end up on the wrong side of a product liability lawsuit, due diligence on my part will be indisputable.

It can. Sometimes this is a problem; usually not. In the case of votives, the wick pin is always used inside the mold. HTH

You can't leave 1/2" of wax remaining in a tea light, for example

Tealights are not container candles any more than are votives.

the chandler does have the option of designing a candle that can burn safely down to the last 1/4" of wax, so the National Candle Association doesn't advise the chandlers not to do that.

They don't say anything about 1/4" either - that's your idea...

As I said above, "There's a reason they came up with that number..."

When it REALLY matters most is if one finds themselves on the wrong side of a product liability suit and the attorney for the plaintiff introduces the industry recommendations that were not followed by the defendent... slam, dunk for the plaintiff.

I couldn't tell from the angle, but I thought it might be the showier 12 oz... I love those, but they are more difficult to wick properly than the standard 8 oz. Good luck and please keep us updated. :-)

Tried both the glass got too hot.

Yep, not surprising.

From the LOVELY, well-designed label (which, to comply with FTC labeling regulations, needs the net weight of the product on it in both common (ounces) and metric (grams)...

"All Natural"

REALLY? :undecided There's nothing "all natural" about soy wax or fragrance oils...

Actually, I think it may be a combination of several things

I completely agree.

Since I make veggie wax candles, I've always used wicks with high temp natural wick wax and have seldom experienced this, although I have had a few FOs clot up the wick pretty badly... I have seen it happen when a container is not wicked correctly, especially if overwicked, and there is more sooting than normal because the wick isn't burning efficiently. I've also see it happen when a candle is powerburned or burned in a draft...

Without having test data from the OPs candles before and now, there's no way to really tell exactly what is causing this - a good reason to test candles methodically so you have a basis on which to compare if something goes wonky in the future.

I used to get sink holes frequently in C3 until I took Stella's advice and started using USA and slowed down the cooling.

To clarify... there is a BIG difference in a sinkhole and the formation of caverns we see above, although they both can have similar origins. A sinkhole happens when the top of the container cools too rapidly for the bottom. The surface is sucked down by the much hotter interior.

USA has nothing to do with mitigating sinkholes or air pockets to my knowledge. What USA WILL do is enhance the texture of the wax somewhat and reduce frosting. It isn't a miracle substance. If you don't pour C3 and cool it right, a rail car of it won't help you.

This can be resolved by cooling on a rack and cooling more evenly. The phenomenon above is MORE likely to occur in tall, deep containers than one whose diameter and height are more evenly matched. This is true of any veggie wax, not just one particular brand of soy. Understand when I say *deep* or *tall*, I am not talking solely about the actual height/depth, but the ratio of the height/depth to the diameter.

Tam, is that a standard 8 oz. jelly jar in the photo?

The OP's problem (in the photo above) is a combination of pouring and cooling too fast in a deep container. The air bubbles created during the fast pour tried to collect and rise to the surface, but the top solidified, so they all joined together into a cavern along the wick just under the surface which was exposed when the candle was lit. The MP drained into the lower portions of the cavern (tragically drowning many cave divers), allowing the wick to flare, because the MP was suddenly emptied - a completely undesirable, dangerous situation for a container candle. :undecided

Pour slower, cool more evenly, and thump the containers gently a few times as they cool to loosen any air bubble clingons from the wick so they can rise and burst to atmosphere.

Try a CDN 14 or 16.

I'm not a wood wick fan either, but your candle looks pleasing - I especially like the container. Have fun and keep testing! :-)