First CP a Disaster

[jeanie353]

OK...So, I made my first two batches of CP soap. Any help would be much appreciated as to what could of all went wrong.

1) First is 100% Castile in a flat mold with divers. The soap is stuck in the mold. The dividers won't come out.

2) When mixing I never got a mixture that didn't have swirls in it. Is this normal? It was like it wasn't incorporating yet did trace. I poured at medium trace.

2nd Batch

1) Also, made yesterday and one loaf is still to soft to come out of mold. Other loaf came out and did slice but is very soft.

These were made out of same batch with 1/2 scented lilac and one lavender.

2) I tried to swirl them with a light purple, dark purple and light gray. I ended up with a solid pink color.

3) Also, this batch also never turned a solid color without a white/off white swirl in the base as I moved the stick blender around.

4) When trying to texture the top it was too soft for about 45 minutes to hold a texture. Eventually, it did but is ugly.

I poured this one at light trace because I wanted to swirl it.

Both batches were mixed with lye and oils at 90 degrees.

Can anyone guess if this soap is safe due to the non-solid color mixture on both recipes and the one recipe still so soft?

I don't know how to upload pictures onto a post where I can type on it. Both of these were from recipes posted on a soapers site.

TIA

Almost forgot to list the recipes:

Castile

48 oz OO

6 oz lye

14 oz water

Other Batch

4 oz Avocado Oil

14 oz CO (used 76 degree)

12 oz Palm Oil

2 oz Shea Butter

5 oz Rice Bran

3 oz Safflower

2 oz Castor

6 oz Sunflower

6.75 oz lye

18 oz water

Edited May 3, 2012 by jeanie353
additional

[TallTayl]

Castile is often soft for a few days if (a) you did not discount your water, ( you did not gel. Divider molds dissipate a lot of heat, so chances are your soap just didn't gel. Leave it in the mold for a few days to allow some evaporation, then try to remove. Or, if your mold is somewhat heat tolerant, stick it in a low oven (170*F is as low as most will go) for about 10 minutes, then try to pull the dividers. I sold my Kelsei molds because they were such a PITB to deal with.

I didn't read what colorants you used. If you used UM colors or some D&C dyes, chances are your pretty colors morphed in the high alkaline environment of the raw soap. Sometimes mica colorants morph too, if they're not CP stable.

Texturing tops will come as you get to know your process and stages better. WIth Castile soap (100% Olive) I work hotter than most (I dont take temps, but teaming hot lye and warm olive oil). It gets to thick trace faster, and to a stage that permits textured tops. My advice: patience grasshopper. DOn't worry about fancy until you get a CP process down pat.

If you're certain that the lye amount calculated and used is accurate, and the soap does not zap when you do a tongue test, then it should end up just fine. 100% OO soap takes longer than most to get to its best. Give it several months (better yet a year) and you'll have some truly great soap.

[jeanie353]

[TallTayl]

If those are disasters, I wonder what your ideal would look like

Even though they appear different than you imagined them, I think they look wonderful.

YOu just posted the formulas. Looks like the second one is high in soft oils and using full water. That would explain the softness upon unmolding. I did not run either through a calculator to get numbers, so I'm just scanning them both.

The Castile looks like full water (more than double the amount of lye), so that does explain part of the softness and reluctance to release from the divider mold.

[jeanie353]

Castile is often soft for a few days if (a) you did not discount your water, ( you did not gel. Divider molds dissipate a lot of heat, so chances are your soap just didn't gel. Leave it in the mold for a few days to allow some evaporation, then try to remove. Or, if your mold is somewhat heat tolerant, stick it in a low oven (170*F is as low as most will go) for about 10 minutes, then try to pull the dividers. I sold my Kelsei molds because they were such a PITB to deal with.

I didn't read what colorants you used. If you used UM colors or some D&C dyes, chances are your pretty colors morphed in the high alkaline environment of the raw soap. Sometimes mica colorants morph too, if they're not CP stable.

Texturing tops will come as you get to know your process and stages better. WIth Castile soap (100% Olive) I work hotter than most (I dont take temps, but teaming hot lye and warm olive oil). It gets to thick trace faster, and to a stage that permits textured tops. My advice: patience grasshopper. DOn't worry about fancy until you get a CP process down pat.

If you're certain that the lye amount calculated and used is accurate, and the soap does not zap when you do a tongue test, then it should end up just fine. 100% OO soap takes longer than most to get to its best. Give it several months (better yet a year) and you'll have some truly great soap.

Forgot to mention that I used Mica colorants purchased from the classies. I can get pics of them if it would help. The one purple is a really bright, medium dark color, the other is a medium/light pearl and the other was black that I used less of to attempt for light gray.

Now that the pics are up, I can see the mica didn't disperse. Also, am seeing holes in the cut soap that weren't there earlier.

I have no idea how to discount water. Just used a recipe that is labeled "Fool Proof Castile". The other is a "luxury soap".

Thanks TallTayl for the advice on the flat mold. Not sure I'll use it again...Well, will see how this goes in a few days.

I made the Castile now due to wanting it to be ready just in time for Christmas for daughters and DIL for a gift basket idea. Am planning to cure the Castile from now (May 1) until Dec 15.

[TallTayl]

Forgot to mention that I used Mica colorants purchased from the classies. I can get pics of them if it would help. The one purple is a really bright, medium dark color, the other is a medium/light pearl and the other was black that I used less of to attempt for light gray.

Now that the pics are up, I can see the mica didn't disperse. Also, am seeing holes in the cut soap that weren't there earlier.

I have no idea how to discount water. Just used a recipe that is labeled "Fool Proof Castile". The other is a "luxury soap".

Thanks TallTayl for the advice on the flat mold. Not sure I'll use it again...Well, will see how this goes in a few days.

I made the Castile now due to wanting it to be ready just in time for Christmas for daughters and DIL for a gift basket idea. Am planning to cure the Castile from now (May 1) until Dec 15.

The divider mold could probably work well for you - once you learn a few tricks. If you insulate it very well after pouring you may be able to trap enough heat to gel (if you wish to gel). if the mold fits into your oven you could kick start the next batch by heating the oven to the lowest setting, then turn it off as you put the mold in. Close the door and check on it the next morning.

Those molds are great for batches that tend to overheat (like oatmeal milk and honey which use real oatmeal, real milk and honey additives). The surface area dissipates heat very quickly. I wouldn't count it out yet. They didn't work in my production environment, but the buyer loves them. Different strokes.

To discount the water you just don't add as much. All calculators (I use SoapCalc when not calculating on my own) give an option for lye solution strength. The minimum amount of water you need to fully dissolve the lye is equal to the amount of lye. So, if your castile called for 6 oz of lye, a 50% solution (equal parts lye and water) would call for 6 oz of water. I generally give myself a little buffer by using a 40% solution. In the case of your 6 oz lye, I would use 9 oz of water. That means 5 fewer oz of water will need to evaporate from the soap. That's a LOT less water to evaporate out leaving the finished bars at nearly the same weight as when cut. When using full water as your recipe did, the finished bar is often much lighter than when originally cut.

Am I getting too confusing? Should I stop typing tonight?

[jeanie353]

Am I getting too confusing? Should I stop typing tonight?

Noooo lol...I'll happily take any info or help offered. So far, I'm following you. Next time I will lower the water amount. The whole lye thing had me worked up into a tizzy so instead of doing it myself, I found a recipe to follow and did not run it through a soap calc. I have now learned!

We did cover the molds with cardboard and a towel but it was major drama making the first batch so it didn't get covered for about an hour while we ran around trying to safely put the used utensils somewhere safe until today when they would turn to safe soap. Then they sat in the garage for about 6 hours at about 45 degrees until I was brave enough to bring it in the house. Was terrified of raw soap getting on the counter or table.

Daughter came through as we were making these and burst out laughing. There was mom and dad with aprons, goggles and very thick chemical proof gloves. I have to laugh now too thinking back but at the time it was not funny....lol.

[TallTayl]

OK. I can picture the scene now. The first one is done. You survived. No biggie. Time to move to the next soap adventure.

I liken soap-making to deep fat frying or using sharp chef's knives and clevers. Prepare, use safe methods and nobody gets hurt. As for the raw soap on the counter... No big deal. Wipe it up and you'll have a nice clean countertop. (unless it's marble which I don't have so all bets are off then).

Always, always always run your formula through a lye calc. I never never EVER trust anyone else's typing or calculations. Call me crazy, but my time is more precious than my materials - neither of which I like to waste.

[jeanie353]

OK. I can picture the scene now. The first one is done. You survived. No biggie. Time to move to the next soap adventure.

I liken soap-making to deep fat frying or using sharp chef's knives and clevers. Prepare, use safe methods and nobody gets hurt. As for the raw soap on the counter... No big deal. Wipe it up and you'll have a nice clean countertop. (unless it's marble which I don't have so all bets are off then).

Always, always always run your formula through a lye calc. I never never EVER trust anyone else's typing or calculations. Call me crazy, but my time is more precious than my materials - neither of which I like to waste.

After the fact, I remembered about this big roll of white soft plastic material for covering tables for a banquet type thing that I used to use to cover my work area when making candles. I'll be using that next time to cover the counter and just pick it up after I'm done and toss in the trash.

After doing it the first time now it will be as you mentioned of working with anything that can be dangerous if careless. Usually, I'm not afraid of too much but this lye was a big hurdle for me to get over. Now that its done, this was not nearly as bad as I imagined and I'm already thinking what I can make next.

The soap calc will be my new best friend after having two batches where both could of been improved on by a few minor adjustments. If the soft soap ends up curing hard enough to last a reasonable amount of time, it may be a keeper. The recipe sounds as if it will make a nice moisturizing soap.

[jeanie353]

I'm putting the luxury soap through the soap calc and coming up with a 0 for cleanliness. It might be user error.

If I use the one at BB, it is telling me it should have had more lye and more water but not giving me the cleanliness, moisturizing, etc. I was able to pull the 2nd loaf out of the mold today but its so soft, the shape distorted some in the process. I'll leave it sit for a day or two and see if it hardens up. The pieces of the cut loaf have firmed up just a little bit but are still very soft.

TallTayl....You were 100% correct with the flat mold and Castile soap. I could see this morning where one line of bars had shrunk a bit and pulled away from the divider. I was able to pull one divider out. The rest aren't moving yet but at least I know the rest should release in time without having to heat it up in the oven.

I did the zap test this morning. Since I've never done that before I'm not quite sure what it should feel like. What I got was a really bad taste with a tiny bit of like a burn taste or harshness....Not quite sure how to explain it. The only other soap in this entire house is M&P so I have nothing to compare it to in a store bought type bar soap.

[TallTayl]

If your soap zaps, you KNOW it. Remember when you were a kid and someone dared you to touch your tongue to the top of a 9 volt battery? That tingle? It's like that, only stronger with more lye heaviness. A bitter taste or soapy taste is normal - especially when using fragrance. Most EO's taste pretty bad. Fo's worse.

As for your Avocado recipe. Here's the composite calculation as written. It is calculated for 6% SF and full water as you typed it.

Soap Bar Quality Suggested Range Your Recipe Hardness 29 - 54 44 Cleansing 12 - 22 20 Conditioning 44 - 69 51 Bubbly 14 - 46 24 Creamy 16 - 48 28 Iodine 41 - 70 67 INS 136 - 165 147

It's a lovely formula overall, but you may find with that much soft oil (safflower, sunflower,rice bran and castor) that this will remain soft for a long while. it will likely wear quickly when in use too. It's not too much harder by calculation than castile. (You know the Hardness number refers to how quickly it will wear, not how hard the bar feels when cured, right?)

If you were up to making this one again as written, I'd decrease the water - even a 35% solution using 12.5 oz of water (if using a known performing fragrance )will make it feel more firm upon unmolding. I'd give this one a while before making final judgements.

[jeanie353]

If your soap zaps, you KNOW it. Remember when you were a kid and someone dared you to touch your tongue to the top of a 9 volt battery? That tingle? It's like that, only stronger with more lye heaviness. A bitter taste or soapy taste is normal - especially when using fragrance. Most EO's taste pretty bad. Fo's worse.

As for your Avocado recipe. Here's the composite calculation as written. It is calculated for 6% SF and full water as you typed it.

Soap Bar Quality Suggested Range Your Recipe Hardness 29 - 54 44 Cleansing 12 - 22 20 Conditioning 44 - 69 51 Bubbly 14 - 46 24 Creamy 16 - 48 28 Iodine 41 - 70 67 INS 136 - 165 147

It's a lovely formula overall, but you may find with that much soft oil (safflower, sunflower,rice bran and castor) that this will remain soft for a long while. it will likely wear quickly when in use too. It's not too much harder by calculation than castile. (You know the Hardness number refers to how quickly it will wear, not how hard the bar feels when cured, right?)

If you were up to making this one again as written, I'd decrease the water - even a 35% solution using 12.5 oz of water (if using a known performing fragrance )will make it feel more firm upon unmolding. I'd give this one a while before making final judgements.

OK...I did not have that type of zap at all. Trying a piece of it from the mold, it was surprisingly nice already. Fair amount of bubbles with a bit of lather and could feel a difference with moisturizing this early vs what I've done so far with M&P.

I will let this one cure 6-8 weeks but think I'll make another batch in the meantime with the decreased water as you suggested and maybe sub another oil in place of Rice Bran & Sunflower. I'll see what I can come up with through a soap calc (I can work) to make the bar last longer without changing the overall qualities of the bar too much.

I'm also a bit nervous because the base kept getting the white lines through it that never went away through stirring or stick blending and will not give this batch out to anyone for testing. I think I didn't stir enough before using the stick blender....maybe. Would rather just do it again in a less frantic state than the first time

I'd also like to try Darwin's recipe posted on the forum. Seems a lot of soapers were pleased with that recipe.

Oh, yes...I did know the hardness number meant hardness for the bar lasting life but thanks for adding it in just in case I didn't.

Thanks a bunch for all your help. I probably would of tossed the whole batch without it

[TallTayl]

Glad you're going to stick with it. Ask anything, any time. If I don't see your thread or post, please feel free to PM if you think I can help.