Waste not want not

[Cake]

I just started using GI 4630 wax, along with the HTP wicks. The problem I'm having is every time the candle burns down it leaves about 1/4 inch of wax in the container. I haven't run in to this problem with vegetable wax or my paraffin pillar wax before. Is this just something I must live with or am I doing something wrong??? Would stickems/glue dots or hot glue (for wicking) make a difference? Please help!

[HorseScentS]

I just started using GI 4630 wax, along with the HTP wicks. The problem I'm having is every time the candle burns down it leaves about 1/4 inch of wax in the container. I haven't run in to this problem with vegetable wax or my paraffin pillar wax before. Is this just something I must live with or am I doing something wrong??? Would stickems/glue dots or hot glue (for wicking) make a difference? Please help!

If your candles used to burn all the way down to the bottom, you were using wicks with 3 mm high collars before. The new HTP wicks probably have a 6 mm high collar that makes them self extinguish before burning the last 1/4" of wax for safety. Leaving 1/4" of wax in the bottom is important for general safety. For gel wax, which burns hotter, you need to leave 1/2" of wax in the bottom because it burns hotter, so you'd need wicks with 9 mm high collars for those.

[Cake]

Thank you so much!! That makes me feel better, to know I shouldn't look at it like wasting wax & that it is safer. I've been making candles for almost 8 years (as a hobby), but I'm still new at it. I just started trying out new waxes & wicks. Thanks again.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Cake
typo

[HorseScentS]

The safety labels warn the customers not to burn the last 1/2" of wax, but they never read that so a lot of them want the candle to burn all the way down to the bottom; so I think it's good to put a tag or a handout that says that the safety wicks are designed to self-extinguish before burning the last 1/4" of wax.

[Stella1952]

I haven't run in to this problem with vegetable wax or my paraffin pillar wax before

That's not a problem - the way your candles WERE burning was the problem.

Wicks tabs will not act as safety devices if they are not sealed to the bottom of the container; otherwise they can continue sucking the liquid wax from underneath until there is none left. This is very dangerous and should be avoided in your candle design.

THe National Candle Association recommends that container candles be extinguished when there is only 1/2" of wax remaining. There's a reason they came up with that number...

I hope you'll read up on that and other aspects of candlemaking here so you can make candles which are reasonably safe for your own use as well as for gifting to others. HTH :-)

[jeanie353]

Thank you so much!! That makes me feel better, to know I shouldn't look at it like wasting wax & that it is safer. I've been making candles for almost 8 years (as a hobby), but I'm still new at it. I just started trying out new waxes & wicks. Thanks again.

I was using standard tab wicks that allowed my candles to burn down to very little left on the bottom of the jar. One of my testers is a power burner. I've tried to tell her to not do it but to no avail. I figured if she is burning the candles this low then its a good chance the customer is going to do the same. So I did a little research and found the safety tabs are recommended to eliminate this.

Went over to CW and had my 2 main sizes of wicks made to my specs. I added a high safety wick tab and the highest MP prime they offer...believe it was 212 degrees.

By using the higher wick tab (safety tab), my power burner was unable to burn the candles down to the bottom of the jar anymore. They extinguished ahead of time leaving about 1/2" of wax left on the bottom of the jar. I may end up with a customer or two feeling they are not getting their money's worth with the wax left at the bottom but at least I know the power burners will have a safer candle.

I also use high temp glue to secure my wicks which may have helped too. I don't slather the tab with glue...just a good sized drop, then press it down into the container with a little screwdriver and it squishes the glue out far enough to seal it up good.

HTH and GL with your candles.

[HorseScentS]

That's not a problem - the way your candles WERE burning was the problem.

THe National Candle Association recommends that container candles be extinguished when there is only 1/2" of wax remaining. There's a reason they came up with that number...

I think the National Candle Association is lumping all container candles together when they say to leave 1/2" of wax, because it depends on the application. You can't leave 1/2" of wax remaining in a tea light, for example. The 1/2" rule is for gel wax, which burns hotter. 1/4" is supposed to be safe for other waxes that are not gel, assuming the candle is designed safely with safe container and FO load, etc.

Also, there's a difference between warning the CUSTOMER not to burn the last 1/2" of wax, and warning the chandler to only use wicks that self-extinguish before burning the last 1/2" of wax. The National Candle Association has not advised chandlers to only use wicks that leave 1/2" of wax, as far as I know.

And, warning the customer to stop burning the candle before burning the last 1/2" of wax is because the customer has no way of knowing how safely the candle was designed, and they might not know the difference between gel and regular wax. But, the chandler does have the option of designing a candle that can burn safely down to the last 1/4" of wax, so the National Candle Association doesn't advise the chandlers not to do that.

Edited March 5, 2012 by HorsescentS

[Stella1952]

You can't leave 1/2" of wax remaining in a tea light, for example

Tealights are not container candles any more than are votives.

the chandler does have the option of designing a candle that can burn safely down to the last 1/4" of wax, so the National Candle Association doesn't advise the chandlers not to do that.

They don't say anything about 1/4" either - that's your idea...

As I said above, "There's a reason they came up with that number..."

When it REALLY matters most is if one finds themselves on the wrong side of a product liability suit and the attorney for the plaintiff introduces the industry recommendations that were not followed by the defendent... slam, dunk for the plaintiff.

[HorseScentS]

Tealights are not container candles any more than are votives.

They don't say anything about 1/4" either - that's your idea...

As I said above, "There's a reason they came up with that number..."

When it REALLY matters most is if one finds themselves on the wrong side of a product liability suit and the attorney for the plaintiff introduces the industry recommendations that were not followed by the defendent... slam, dunk for the plaintiff.

Yes, tealights are container candles, it's wax in a very small container.

The 1/4" is not my idea, those are the 6 mm high wick assemblies and according to the wick manufacturers, the 6 mm ones have become popular for general safety because they're taller than the 3 mm wick assemblies everyone used to use.

If you're saying that using a 6 mm high wick assembly is a slam dunk for the plaintiff you are wrong, because the industry does not recommend to chandlers to use the 9 mm, 1/2" high wick assemblies in all container candles. The industry DOES recommend that the CUSTOMER not burn the last 1/2" of wax, because the CUSTOMER does NOT KNOW if the wick is securely attached to the bottom of the jar, or what the FO load is, or whether the container is approved candle glass, etc.

Like I said, what the industry recommends to the CUSTOMER, and what it recommends to the CHANDLER, are not the same thing.

Edited March 6, 2012 by HorsescentS

[ChrisR]

Horsescents you are correct and Stella is totally wrong.......tea lights and votives are considered container candles and that's how I explain them to my customers. We tell customers to burn votives in "tight a fitting container", not as a free standing pillar!! Tea lights are usually poured with container wax directly into the tea light cup.

[Stella1952]

Stella is totally wrong.......tea lights and votives are considered container candles

Nope. They are considered hybrids between pillars and container candles. While either can be poured directly into a container, most are molded. Tealights can be removed from the metal cups to burn in tealight holders. They are similar to container candles, in that they are designed to be burned in a close-fitting container, but are not considered to be "container" candles.

How YOU pour your tealights, Chris, and what you tell your customers about your products is your business, but your mileage may vary. One size doesn't fit all.

There is much recent discussion (in light of all the product recalls of tealights due to fire hazard) that tealights poured into plastic containers should NOT be burned in close-fitting containers because the heat is more concentrated, leading to melting of the polycarbonate cups or ignition of the entire tealight.

If you're saying that using a 6 mm high wick assembly is a slam dunk for the plaintiff you are wrong, because the industry does not recommend to chandlers to use the 9 mm, 1/2" high wick assemblies in all container candles. The industry DOES recommend that the CUSTOMER not burn the last 1/2" of wax, because the CUSTOMER does NOT KNOW if the wick is securely attached to the bottom of the jar, or what the FO load is, or whether the container is approved candle glass, etc.

Below is a link to safety wick tabs manufactured by the Stimpson division of Wicks Unlimited.

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/safety_lengths_clips.php

and extra length safety wick tabs where 1/2" = 12.7 mm...

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/extra_safety_lengths_clips.php

You can argue until the cows come home. Common sense would suggest that the 1/2" guideline doesn't apply to candles which are only 1/2" thick. I don't think the guidelines apply to birthday candles either... but we weren't talking about any of those, were we? We were talking about normal container candles for which the guidelines are clear: they should be extinguished when 1/2" of wax remains.

Remember that the NCA is created and funded by and for the candle industry. Their job is to place as much responsibility for safety hazards on the consumer as possible and to protect the interests of manufacturers. A trial attorney in a product liability lawsuit is there for the plaintiff, meaning it is his/her job to place as much responsibility for safety on the manufacturers as possible. What is FAIR lies somewhere in between.

Me? I'm always going to err on the side of safety when making candles so that if I ever DO end up on the wrong side of a product liability lawsuit, due diligence on my part will be indisputable.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Stella1952

[ChrisR]

Stella you can cut & paste all day long and it still won't make you right. I never said tea lights should be burned in close fitting containers, just votives. Do you even make votives & tealights? Where in your cut & pasting have you come across that votives & teas are 'hybrids', cause in the 13 - 14 years of candlemaking have I ever seen them referred to as that? :rolleyes2

[HorseScentS]

Stella you can cut & paste all day long and it still won't make you right. I never said tea lights should be burned in close fitting containers, just votives. Do you even make votives & tealights? Where in your cut & pasting have you come across that votives & teas are 'hybrids', cause in the 13 - 14 years of candlemaking have I ever seen them referred to as that? :rolleyes2

Exactly, Chris! Stella is wrong.

And the National Candle Association has never advised chandlers to use only the 9 mm, 1/2" high wick assemblies, WHY? Because the National Candle Association knows that candles can be safely designed with the 6 mm, 1/4" high wick assemblies, and even with the 3.8 mm high wick assemblies, which are the traditional industry standard.

And, when Stella cuts and pastes, I love the way she ignores any info that contradicts her fanatical position:

Wicks Unlimited:

"Industry Standards Wick Clips

"Industry Standards wick clips are available in 3.8mm standard length, in two hole sizes and two base diameters.

"Small Base Wick Clips

A3789 is one of the most commonly used clips in the industry, found primarily in votives and tea lights. It has the industry standard 15mm base, 3.8mm length and 2.4mm hole size. Together with the A3015, which has a 3.0mm hole for thicker wicks, these clips provide the basics in wick support and positioning."

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/industry_standards_clips.php

Wicks Unlimited: "Medium Length Wick Clips

"Medium Length wick clips are available in 6.0mm length, in two hole sizes and two base diameters.

"This size clip has become very popular in the industry as it provides an increased measure of safety by keeping the flame further from the bottom of the container, while still leaving only a minimum amount of wax unconsumed."

http://www.wicksunlimited.com/medium_lengths_clips.php

So, you see, Stella, according to Wicks Unlimited the 3.8 mm short wick assemblies ARE THE INDUSTRY STANDARD! And the 6.0 mm wick assembly provides AN INCREASED MEASURE OF SAFETY over and above THE INDUSTRY STANDARD of 3.8 mm.

Edited March 6, 2012 by HorsescentS

[chuck_35550]

Oh for pete's sake, the National Candle Association lists these candles as separate "types". Obviously, a tea light is not a container candle meant to be used on its own; you put the thing in a burner. A votive is put in a holder and a container doesn't have to be placed into anything to make it work or safe. It's only common sense to sell a safe product that reduces the risk of hazard. Customers are not candle makers and for the most part pay little attention to the details we place in our products. Why attack Stella for making a case for her opinion? You don't have to do what Stella suggests and it doesn't mean Stella is 100% anything but opinionated. Its not fair to hijack a thread for the sake of ganging up on someone you are feuding with due to personality conflict. The point of a thread is to develop discussion for the purpose of improvement of one's own product(s). Come on ladies and give it a rest. Please.

[jeanie353]

You can't leave 1/2" of wax remaining in a tea light, for exampl.

HS...you are 100% correct in that and I forgot to mention tea lights not being included for safety tabs. The wicks made for tea lights do a wonderful job of not getting too hot (if wicked properly) and standing up better through the burn. I do secure my tea light wick tabs to the tea light container. That is just my personal preference. A lot of places recommend simply putting the wick & tab into the wax as it begins to thicken.

[HorseScentS]

A lot of places recommend simply putting the wick & tab into the wax as it begins to thicken.

Yes, I met a candle shop owner who makes her votives that way. She doesn't like the wick tab to show in the bottom of the votive. I like your way better, though.

[HorseScentS]

Oh for pete's sake, the National Candle Association lists these candles as separate "types". Obviously, a tea light is not a container candle meant to be used on its own; you put the thing in a burner. A votive is put in a holder and a container doesn't have to be placed into anything to make it work or safe. It's only common sense to sell a safe product that reduces the risk of hazard. Customers are not candle makers and for the most part pay little attention to the details we place in our products. Why attack Stella for making a case for her opinion? You don't have to do what Stella suggests and it doesn't mean Stella is 100% anything but opinionated. Its not fair to hijack a thread for the sake of ganging up on someone you are feuding with due to personality conflict. The point of a thread is to develop discussion for the purpose of improvement of one's own product(s). Come on ladies and give it a rest. Please.

Nobody is "attacking" Stella. It's Stella who swoops on everyone else trying to ram her fanatical candle paranoia down everyone's throats. If you and Stella want to use 9.00 mm wick assemblies on your container candles, that's fine with me and everyone else. But, when Stella asserts that anyone who doesn't do things HER way is going to burn down the neighborhood and lose every lawsuit in a "slam dunk" win for the Prosecution, it's ridiculous!

[Stella1952]

Do you even make votives & tealights?

Yes, in fact, in the old thread below you can view some of the votives I made out of scraps. Enjoy!

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?101245-What-do-you-do-with-your-little-bits...&p=955857#post955857

Where in your cut & pasting have you come across that votives & teas are 'hybrids', cause in the 13 - 14 years of candlemaking have I ever seen them referred to as that?

Do your own homework, Chris. I do mine. That's why I CITE when I state an opinion. You call it copy/paste - where I come from, it's called supporting your points with other sources of information so people don't think one has been fishing around in their rectum for ideas.

[ChrisR]

I can find enough crap on the internet to copy/paste that will support ANY opinion, but it doesn't always mean it's correct!! So out of your rectum it comes!!

[Stella1952]

ChrisR, why don't you share some of the worthy discussion YOU find on the internet instead of terming it all "crap" and attacking others who post differing viewpoints. Remember that you are writing on the internet - is what you are writing "crap" also? You and Horsescents could also try sticking to the TOPIC which was how much wax is recommended to leave in a container candle - NOT votives, NOT tealights and NOT birthday candles. While you may have opinions, some people choose to recommend the suggested standards for the industry, which have already been mentioned, cited and linked. So the rest of this is just arguing for the sake of argument. The OP's question was very simple.

Horsescents, why should we design a candle to burn down to 1/4" when the recommended safety guideline is to extinguish at 1/2"? Is that discussion necessarily appropriate to this thread?

Since you "called me out" on my use of the term "hybrid" for votives and tealights, Chris, and were too lazy to look it up for yourself, and seemed to want to make a big, hairy deal out of my statement, here's a source for you...

Candlescience says "Votives are a bit of a hybrid between pillars & containers."

It's Stella who swoops on everyone else trying to ram her fanatical candle paranoia down everyone's throats. If you and Stella want to use 9.00 mm wick assemblies on your container candles, that's fine with me and everyone else.

Horsecents, considering the number of fires caused yearly by candles, it's simple responsibility to remember that we are manufacturing products which use an OPEN FLAME. My "fanatical candle paranoia" (some might call it "concern") is shared by many responsible candlemakers AND customers, particularly any of the over 15,000 people who experience a house fire yearly due to candles, 85% of which could have been prevented by safe use of candles. The OTHER 15%, BTW, happened on OUR WATCH - improperly manufactured candles. That's why melts have become so popular: many people don't want an open flame in their homes, apartments, dorm rooms. Whether safety is important to YOU or not, it's a big deal in our industry and to customers... If pointing out safety issues saves ONE PERSON from a fire, it's time well spent in writing and reading about it.

Where are YOU coming from?

Apparently you are ignoring Jeannie's reply in Post #6 above relating the "whys" behind her choice of using a longer wick tab, in favor of arguing with me. YOU brought up the subject of tealights which were NOT part of the OP's discussion. As I said previously, it is common sense that a candle which is only a little over 1/2" in height would NOT be part of the prohibition about CONTAINER candles. It's a freakin' TEALIGHT, not a container candle. There IS a difference whether YOU wish to recognize it or not, in your desire to attack statements made by other members.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Stella1952

[HorseScentS]

ChrisR, why don't you share some of the worthy discussion YOU find on the internet instead of terming it all "crap" and attacking others who post differing viewpoints. Remember that you are writing on the internet - is what you are writing "crap" also? You and Horsescents could also try sticking to the TOPIC which was how much wax is recommended to leave in a container candle - NOT votives, NOT tealights and NOT birthday candles. While you may have opinions, some people choose to recommend the suggested standards for the industry, which have already been mentioned, cited and linked. So the rest of this is just arguing for the sake of argument. The OP's question was very simple.

Horsescents, why should we design a candle to burn down to 1/4" when the recommended safety guideline is to extinguish at 1/2"? Is that discussion necessarily appropriate to this thread?

Since you "called me out" on my use of the term "hybrid" for votives and tealights, Chris, and were too lazy to look it up for yourself, and seemed to want to make a big, hairy deal out of my statement, here's a source for you...

Candlescience says "Votives are a bit of a hybrid between pillars & containers."

Horsecents, considering the number of fires caused yearly by candles, it's simple responsibility to remember that we are manufacturing products which use an OPEN FLAME. My "fanatical candle paranoia" (some might call it "concern") is shared by many responsible candlemakers AND customers, particularly any of the over 15,000 people who experience a house fire yearly due to candles, 85% of which could have been prevented by safe use of candles. The OTHER 15%, BTW, happened on OUR WATCH - improperly manufactured candles. That's why melts have become so popular: many people don't want an open flame in their homes, apartments, dorm rooms. Whether safety is important to YOU or not, it's a big deal in our industry and to customers... If pointing out safety issues saves ONE PERSON from a fire, it's time well spent in writing and reading about it.

Where are YOU coming from?

Apparently you are ignoring Jeannie's reply in Post #6 above relating the "whys" behind her choice of using a longer wick tab, in favor of arguing with me. YOU brought up the subject of tealights which were NOT part of the OP's discussion. As I said previously, it is common sense that a candle which is only a little over 1/2" in height would NOT be part of the prohibition about CONTAINER candles. It's a freakin' TEALIGHT, not a container candle. There IS a difference whether YOU wish to recognize it or not, in your desire to attack statements made by other members.

Stella, you can stop playing the victim, nobody is going to buy that! You are infamous for swooping on and attacking people who do not agree lockstep with your fanatical viewpoints.

Furthermore, Stella, you seem to have difficulty grasping the concept that the advice given to CUSTOMERS regarding how much wax to leave in the bottom of a candle is a completely different issue than the advice given to chandlers on how much wax they should design their candles to leave in the bottom.

A customer has no way of knowing if high temp silicone was used to attach the wick to the container, or if it's merely attached with a wick tab which will come lose during the last 1/2" of the burn, so to be on a safe side, CUSTOMERS are advised to leave 1/2" inch in the bottom of the candle.

A customer has no way of knowing if their candle was made with approved candle glass that can withstand the heat should their candle be allowed to burn all the way down, so to be on the safe side the CUSTOMERS are advised to leave 1/2" of wax in the bottom of the candle.

A CUSTOMER has no way of knowing if the candle has a safe FO load, or if the FO load is high enough to make the candle more flammable, so to be on the safe sid the CUSTOMERS are advised to leave 1/2" of wax in the bottom of the candle.

A customer may not know that their candle is made of gel wax, which burns much hotter, so to be on the safe side the CUSTOMER is advised to leave 1/2" of wax on the bottom of the candle.

Chandlers, however, do know all the elements of their candle, so...

A chandler is free to use the INDUSTRY STANDARD 3.8 mm wick assembly if they want to because it is possible to design a safe candle with a 3.8 mm wick assembly.

A chandler is free to use a 6.0 mm wick assembly for an extra measure of safety, if they want to, because it is possible to design a safe candle with a 6.0 mm wick assembly.

Now, I'm done reading your idiotic posts. I think you have serious problems that warrant medical intervention.

Edited March 7, 2012 by HorsescentS

[Stella1952]

I think you have serious problems that warrant medical intervention.

Your personal insults continue. I DO have a slice on my thumb that's looking angry this morning, but I think I can handle it without professional intervention. Thanks for your concern.

[Beth]

Well, I hate to resurrect this thread, but I just got my reply. I emailed the NCA to settle this debate.

"The public portion of the website is written for consumers, in the hopes of providing an extra margin of safety. As a chandler, you would want to meet the ASTM F 2417 fire-safety specification standard for candles that calls for an “end of useful” life requirement that the candle goes out without causing any secondary ignition, excess flame height or cracking of the container.

As with most consensus standards, it is not proscriptive as to the design or mechanism you choose to employ in meeting the standard’s criteria."

(forgot to add their P.S.)

"P.S. We never use the term “self-extinguish” with the general public for fear that consumers will leave their candles unattended, which remains a major cause of accidental candle fires."

Edited March 9, 2012 by Beth

[HorseScentS]

Well, I hate to resurrect this thread, but I just got my reply. I emailed the NCA to settle this debate.

"The public portion of the website is written for consumers, in the hopes of providing an extra margin of safety. As a chandler, you would want to meet the ASTM F 2417 fire-safety specification standard for candles that calls for an “end of useful” life requirement that the candle goes out without causing any secondary ignition, excess flame height or cracking of the container.

As with most consensus standards, it is not proscriptive as to the design or mechanism you choose to employ in meeting the standard’s criteria."

(forgot to add their P.S.)

"P.S. We never use the term “self-extinguish” with the general public for fear that consumers will leave their candles unattended, which remains a major cause of accidental candle fires."

Thank you, Beth!

[Beth]

Again, I'm resurrecting this thread because I asked a follow-up question to which they replied:

"We presume that the wick tab company is using the term "industry standard" to mean a widely followed practice within the industry, as opposed to a published standard.

ASTM, like ANSI, or UL, is an official standards body that publishes consensus standards. The National Candle Association is NOT a standards body and does not set industry standards.

To our knowledge, the only official standards in North America relating to candles are 6 ASTM standards. As I mentioned, the ASTM F2417 standard requires that candles come to the end of their useful life without any secondary ignition, excessive flame height or cracking of the container (if there is one). It does not specify how that is to be achieved nor does it discuss wick tab height."