Wick Adhesive / Removal of Wicks after testing

[burntheflame]

Hi all,

I am conducting some tests for container candles and trying to reuse the containers to lower my costs during testing.

I started using double sided wick tabs/adhesives but find that the tabs don't always adhere well to the bottom of the tins and sometimes start floating even as I am pouring the wax. Very frustrating.

I read on these forums that some experts have used Permatex Blue RTV to stick the wicks more securely. That works like a charm. The problem is that I can't get the wick tab to come off now after the wax has burned through

Can you guys please provide some advice. What adhesive should I use? What's the easiest way to get the wicks off after having used Permatex....any suggestions will be welcomed.

thanks !!

[Paul]

I use high melt glue sticks and a glue gun. It is much more forgiving in centering the wick.

When I'm done with the candle, I'll pour out the old wax and put the container in the oven at 180 for about 10 min. Then take some pliers and pull the old wick tab out. Wipe the jar down and wash.

Personally, I like to pour test candles without a wick. Then just take a drill bit or skewer and poke a hole in the center when ready to test. Just put the wick you want in the hole and if it doesnt' work, just pull out the old one. New hole, new wick ... presto. HTH

Edited February 23, 2012 by Paul

[lmc]

I use hot glue gun on my testers and Permatex red on the others....

[ksranch]

Me too - as in I only use the RED Permatex on candles for sale, not testers I want to reuse.

[Stella1952]

I use high-temp hot glue for testing purposes only. If the wick moves near the end, it doesn't affect the important part of my testing. I don't pull wicks when testing containers as the test data is skewed because conditions in a container change as the wick melts down into the container. This does work for pillars, however, so long as the top is leveled after the wick is changed. Red or Blue permatex is fine - I use the red but have also used the blue. Doesn't matter so long as it's rated for high temp applications. I use a single edge razor blade to remove wick tabs from the bottom of containers and tins. I have learned it doesn't take as much adhesive as I originally used. Only a dot of the permatex is needed to seal the wick hole and adhere the tab to the container. It doesn't have to ook up all around the tab to seal and hold the tab securely.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Stella1952

[jeanie353]

Personally, I like to pour test candles without a wick. Then just take a drill bit or skewer and poke a hole in the center when ready to test. Just put the wick you want in the hole and if it doesnt' work, just pull out the old one. New hole, new wick ... presto. HTH

I do the same for testing. When we know our wax and wicks it usually doesn't take long into the burn to know if that wick is going to be in the ballpark or not including compensating for the 2nd half of the jar and how hot it gets. If I'm testing a new jar or wax then I'd use hot glue to see how its going to act later on in the burn. Edited February 23, 2012 by jeanie353

[Paul]

Is there a good reason to use permatex in the finished candle? The stuff is kind of expensive and a little toxic, when compared to glue sticks. Methyl ethyl ketone, methyl ethyl ketoxime, formaldehyde and good number of other solvents meant for outdoor applications - albeit very small amounts in candle usage.

I'm just wondering if using glue sticks causes problems down the road or during application that outway the cost and problems of permatex?

[jeanie353]

Is there a good reason to use permatex in the finished candle? The stuff is kind of expensive and a little toxic, when compared to glue sticks. Methyl ethyl ketone, methyl ethyl ketoxime, formaldehyde and good number of other solvents meant for outdoor applications - albeit very small amounts in candle usage.

I'm just wondering if using glue sticks causes problems down the road or during application that outway the cost and problems of permatex?

I can't speak for permatex because I don't use it but I do use hot glue sticks. Only high temp glue sticks and have not had any problems nor any reported. Not to say it could never happen just saying from my experience.

I do have a DIL who is a major power burner (yep, warned her many times) who brings her jars back for refills and also is one of my testers. So far, all of her jars have come back with the wick still intact.

She did have one wick tip over (not come loose) while burning but that was from wicks with too low MP prime from a supplier. We've remedied that problem.

HTH

Edited February 24, 2012 by jeanie353

[Stella1952]

Is there a good reason to use permatex in the finished candle? The stuff is kind of expensive and a little toxic, when compared to glue sticks. Methyl ethyl ketone, methyl ethyl ketoxime, formaldehyde and good number of other solvents meant for outdoor applications - albeit very small amounts in candle usage.

I'm just wondering if using glue sticks causes problems down the road or during application that outway the cost and problems of permatex?

While the volatile organic compounds are far less in high temperature hot glue, the ingredient list of hot glue sticks is not necessarily benign. Its main disadvantage is loss of bond strength when exposed to high temperatures and it is not the best choice for high heat applications.

Below is the link to the MSDS for Permatex High Temp RTV RED Silicone Gasket Maker :

http://www.permatex.com/documents/msds/01_USA-English/81160.pdf

I did not find Methyl ethyl ketone, methyl ethyl ketoxime, or formaldehyde listed specifically on the label as ingredientsor or in the MSDS. This is a silicone rubber RTV adhesive. While it does contain some petroleum distillates, and releases acetic acid during curing (24 hours) none of those compounds are present in the cured sealant. It is listed as non-flammable and non-toxic. When cured for 24 hours, it is chemically inert, as with most silicone rubber materials.

This is the link to the handling sheet:

http://www.permatex.com/documents/tds/Automotive/81160.pdf

The advantages to this RTV sealant are many:

It is rated for applications up to 600°F - which is in excess of the temperature at the bottom of most correctly wicked containers.

It does not soften nor lose bond strength as the temperature rises; this assures a seal to prevent the wick from sucking liquid fuel (wax) from under the wick tab (which defeats the self-extinguishing safety feature of wick tabs). This also prevents the wick from moving.

High temp hot glue guns heat to approximately 380°F to liquify the glue. The glue itself melts at a much lower temp and softens at around 165°F. When it softens, it loses its adhesion and sealing properties which can allow wax to be drawn into the wick by capillary action. In worst case scenario, the glue can release and allow the wick tab to wander to the side of the container (via convection currents in the hot liquid wax).

Below is a photo of such a failure: This is a correctly wicked palm wax candle whose wick tab was secured with high temp hot glue. As you can see, the high temp hot glue adhesive failed completely. Because the wick could suck wax underneath the wick tab, it did not self-extinguish at the top of the tab, which allowed temperatures to rise higher than is acceptable at the end of the container. The loss of the bond allowed the wick to become completely detached from the bottom of the container and wander over to the side of the jar. You can see the excess soot above the wick in the photo (the black stuff on the opposite side is testing data). It could have been worse: the container could have shattered due to thermal shock had it been burning in a cooler environment...

ONE failure of this type has the potential to cause property damage, injury or fire, especially if a customer is not careful to extinguish the candle at approximately 1/2" from the bottom of the container. The purpose of using a self-extinguishing wick tab is to prevent this scenario even if a customer doesn't pay strict attention. I have not had a single failure with Permatex; however, I have had several with high temp hot glue (none quite as dramatic as the one in the photo only because I extinguished them).

I think the extra cost and bother is easily justified by the extra safety provided by the Permatex silicone sealer. HTH

Edited February 24, 2012 by Stella1952

[Beth]

Is there a good reason to use permatex in the finished candle? The stuff is kind of expensive and a little toxic, when compared to glue sticks. Methyl ethyl ketone, methyl ethyl ketoxime, formaldehyde and good number of other solvents meant for outdoor applications - albeit very small amounts in candle usage.

I'm just wondering if using glue sticks causes problems down the road or during application that outway the cost and problems of permatex?

I've had every other type come loose either during burning or pouring (palm). I don't attach wicks for testing, but use Permatex in "final" candles & for palm testers.

[Paul]

Wow, thank you for the detailed response Stella. You have another fan of RTV. My glue sticks will now only be used for testers.

Formaldehyde is most certainly in this product and is listed as an out gas on the MSDS, and if you have petroleum distillates, your going to have ketones. My concern is only for the person using the RTV as it is out-gassing. DO NOT BREATH this stuff. Use in a well ventilated area or use a NIOSH organic vapor mask.

[burntheflame]

Guys, Thank you so much for the detailed responses.

have been using high temp glue and Permatex Blue but will now switch to Red and try that out as well.

Paul, thanks for the tip on heating the container to 180 for 10 mins. I used pliers and the wicks came right out of two of my more expensive tester containers.

Stella, thanks for the detailed response/explanation.

Again...thanks for all your responses and guidance everyone.

[Stella1952]

Permatex Blue but will now switch to Red

You really don't have to unless it costs more or something... It's rated for 500°F, has the same basic properties as any RTV sealant.

http://www.permatex.com/products/Automotive/automotive_gasketing/gasket_makers.htm

I have found that simply washing the container in HOT tap water will facilitate removal of the tab, especially if the sealer is used more sparingly (I used to make mine look like a wax seal on an envelope until I realized that less is better and just as effective).

Formaldehyde is most certainly in this product and is listed as an out gas on the MSDS, and if you have petroleum distillates, your going to have ketones

PLEASE read the MSDS carefully. The INGREDIENTS are listed in Section 2, Composition/Information on Ingredients. It does not appear there as an ingredient.

Formaldehyde is mentioned in Sections 5 (Fire Fighting Measures)

"

Hazardous Products of Combustion

: Acetic acid, Formaldehyde, Silica fume, Oxides of nitrogen, Oxides of carbon, Oxides of sulfur, Metal oxide fumes"

and 8 (Comments).

"

When heated to temperatures above 300 degrees F. in the presence of air, this product can form formaldehyde vapors.

Formaldehyde is a potential cancer hazard and a known skin and respiratory sensitizer. Safe handling conditions may be maintained by keeping vapor concentrations below the OSHA permissible limit for formaldehyde."

Both of those sections deal with either heating the uncured, liquid material to temperatures over 300°F or igniting them. We do neither when using this product as a wicktab adhesive.

Formaldehyde is a common natural compound formed from other chemicals when stuff burns or is heated (a chemical reaction caused by heat). It is NOT an ingredient of the sealant.

The biggest hazard from using this material is the release of acetic acid (the acid in vinegar) during the first 24 hours as the material cures. Once the material cures, no more acetic acid is released. It is used up by the chemical reaction which hardens the adhesive in much the same way that lye is used up in the chemical reaction of saponification of oils when making soap. Acetic acid can irritate sensitive airways in sufficient concentration. Having made homemade pickles and cleaned with white vinegar for years, I can assure you that the acetic acid released by using RTV to adhere wicks is a FAR lesser concentration than those normal kitchen activities. I don't remember ever needing a NIOSH respirator when doing so because I am operating in a well-ventilated, open area where there is no possibility of the fumes collecting to hazardous levels. Just because we can smell acetic acid (a VOC) does not mean it is at an unhealthy level in the environment.

The amounts and concentration of VOCs and chemical compounds involved are the key here. Formaldehyde is an INGREDIENT contained in some shampoos. Nail polish contains a lot of formaldehyde, yet I don't recall seeing people wearing NIOSH-approved respirators at nail salons or while polishing their nails watching television. I don't wear a respirator when wicking candles with RTV while watching television either. The FOs one uses in candles contain high levels of VOCs (volatile organic compounds) or they would have no scent. The dyes used (unless one is using EVO or other REACH compliant dye) contain petroleum distillates. When I drink a beer, I exhale ketones as a byproduct of the breakdown of the carbohydrates (alcohol & sugar) in the beer. Formaldehyde is produced in my liver when it breaks down the alcohol in the beer. It's a naturally occurring compound in our bodies and environment. So are ketones. The mere mention of these natural compounds on a label or MSDS sheet should not cause people alarm. Read the concentration levels and understand these are not terrifying chemicals - they are all around you and often produced right in your own body!

Use common sense. Protect your skin and don't snort the vapors from the tube. Protect your airway {ie. wear a respirator) if you are sensitive, have asthma, COPD, etc. or are using the product in a small, poorly ventilated area.

Edited February 24, 2012 by Stella1952

[Paul]

I stand corrected Stella, the MSDS I was reading last night is not the same MSDS that you have posted.

On the other hand – the MSDS you did post …

3. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATION

Toxicity: May cause eye and skin irritation. May irritate lips, gums, tongue, mouth, nose and throat. ****When this product is exposed to moisture, acetic acid may be formed. May irritate respiratory system upon frequent or prolonged use.

8. EXPOSURE CONTROLS/PERSONAL PROTECTION

Eyes: Safety glasses.

Skin: Neoprene or nitrile gloves recommended.

Ventilation: General; local exhaust ventilation as necessary to control any air contaminants to within their exposure limits (or to the lowest feasible levels when limits have not been established) during the use of this product.

Respiratory Protection: An approved organic vapor respirator should be worn when exposures are expected to exceed the applicable limits.

I only bring this up, because I can see many of us using our children and grandchildren to do our wicking for us. I can picture their little noses right up against that container making sure the wick is perfect, and breathing in unacceptable concentrations of this product. Do not treat these chemicals lightly. The manufacturer recommends using in a well ventilated space or using an organic respirator.

… and this is for approved uses. If you’re going to be using this product, as I soon will be, for an unapproved use - I think it is better to err on the side of caution.

Just to clarify, I’m not trying to dissuade anyone from using this product. Just use responsibly. This means using in a well ventilated room OR using a respirator

[Stella1952]

Apparently you have not used much RTV (silicone rubber), Paul. *wink* It really is NOT a scary substance. It's the clear sealant used in aquaria; the stuff used to seal windows, sinks and bathtubs and hundreds of other construction and industrial uses. The liquid "leading" used for crafting fake stained glass windows is RTV. Carpenters, painters and plumbers could not live without it! It is a similar material to what is used to make silicone molds for crafting.

Unless someone has a particular sensitivity, this material is nearly as harmless as it gets. I'd freak out if the kids ate it before it had cured vs. if they ate Elmer's glue (PVC glue) or paste, but it is an extremely common and non-hazardous material in a wide range of applications and situations. Very few people have any health issues with it but most universally do not like the smell of acetic acid as it cures. It isn't as bad as the smell of paint drying, for sure! I actually DO have my nose right over the container as I am wicking it - just as I would with hot glue or adhesive tabs. It doesn't EVEN compare to standing over a simmering pot of pickling vinegar (acetic acid) and herbs - or, god forbid, crab & crawfish boil (VOCs) - now those are eye watering, nose running materials!! *faint*

BTW, one can use nail polish remover (acetone-based) to remove it from hands, under fingernails or on hard surfaces that wouldn't be harmed by the acetone but only when it is very fresh. Once it has set up and hardened, it has to be peeled or scrubbed off.

Which brings me to the involvement of kids... Kids like to *accidentally on purpose* get it on their fingers, hands and arms so they can sit and peel it like sunburn and throw the snibbles on the floor. Do not let kids play with a long, hardened string of it, because they will pop you with it like a rubber band. Gratefully, it's not quite as elastic as natural latex rubber and doesn't hurt as badly when they do this. Because children conveniently don't notice things, they can *somehow* get it on their hands or feet and track it all over the carpet or flooring on their way to the refrigerator where you will find it smeared on the door handle or near the bathroom light switch and toilet handle (if they remember to flush). Use around kids at your own peril. :laugh2:

[Pam W]

I've been using tacky wax for a while to secure my wicks to the bottom of the jar. I haven't had any wicks come loose during the burns and it is easy to remove/clean if I choose to reuse the tester jar.

[jeanie353]

I've been using tacky wax for a while to secure my wicks to the bottom of the jar. I haven't had any wicks come loose during the burns and it is easy to remove/clean if I choose to reuse the tester jar.

Is that the tacky micro wax? I used that to secure glass tea light holders into pillars by putting a thin layer around the tea light glass, putting in place in the mold, pouring the wax and removing from mold after 2nd pour.

They don't move. Tried to take one out because I didn't like candle and ended up just tossing pillar w/glass holder embedded. Its really neat stuff.

[Pam W]

Don't know if it's micro wax - it's Yaley's Tacky Wax from the craftstore. I've used it for anchoring pillars to tall candle holders and someone here recommended it for wicks...a little dab will do ya. I won't go back to the wick-stick-em.

ETA: it cleans off the bottom of the container real easy - no residue left to scrub/scrape off.

Edited February 25, 2012 by Pam W

[ksranch]

Don't know if it's micro wax - it's Yaley's Tacky Wax from the craftstore. I've used it for anchoring pillars to tall candle holders and someone here recommended it for wicks...a little dab will do ya. I won't go back to the wick-stick-em.

ETA: it cleans off the bottom of the container real easy - no residue left to scrub/scrape off.

Does it have to 'cure' very long? That's the one thing I don't like about the Permatex - if I need to wick & pour something in the same day.....

[jeanie353]

Does it have to 'cure' very long? That's the one thing I don't like about the Permatex - if I need to wick & pour something in the same day.....

Not sure about what Pam has from Yaley but the stuff I have is from TCMS and does not have a cure time. Its sticky and adheres like "right now". Once the wax is poured I couldn't dig the embedded glass tea light holders out of the pillar wax. I'd burned candles with tea lights in those glasses and while I realize its a whole lot different from using on wicks, the heat of the tea light did nothing at all to the tacky micro wax. I believe it has a 190-200 degree MP but would have to re-check to be positive.

I'm going to attach some wicks w/it in my testers to see if they hold up like the Yaley. Will report once I burn one down that far. Am testing paraffin, soy, parasoy and palm so it may be awhile.

Edit...Just went to TCMS and seems they don't carry it anymore. It was micro tacky wax with a high MP. Initially bought it to melt down for high MP prime on wicks.

Edited February 25, 2012 by jeanie353
additional

[Pam W]

Does it have to 'cure' very long? That's the one thing I don't like about the Permatex - if I need to wick & pour something in the same day.....

No cure time - it sticks instantly but you can move the wick base around a little to center if need be. I use wick bars to secure my wicks and am able to pull them nice & straight.

http://www.createforless.com/Yaley+Tacky+Wax+1oz/pid36482.aspx

[Stella1952]

No cure time - it sticks instantly but you can move the wick base around a little to center if need be. I use wick bars to secure my wicks and am able to pull them nice & straight.

I'll give this a try on testers. I sure hope the bond can hold up to slight twisting of wicks and keeps the seal intact at the bottom of the wick tab. Thanks for the tip - I'm ALWAYS looking for an easier/better way that works... :-)

[Pam W]

don't know about twisting - I only twist my pillar wicks.

[tlc]

I twist my wicks before I put them in the jars and they stay twisted Stella. I don't know how many twists you put on yours though.

I saw the tacky wax today at the craft store and now I'm kicking myself for not buying it (but I did get me a soap mold. Ssshhhh don't tell the DH :tiptoe:).

[Pam W]

I twist my wicks before I put them in the jars and they stay twisted Stella. I don't know how many twists you put on yours though.

I saw the tacky wax today at the craft store and now I'm kicking myself for not buying it (but I did get me a soap mold. Ssshhhh don't tell the DH :tiptoe:).

We won't tell - pinky promise!!

After Stella posted about twisting, ya know I just had to go pour one and see what happens - I use Ecos & they don't twist well but did give it a couple of turns and the tacky wax did hold.