Tempering 464 wax

[dixiegal]

If I'm using a large turkey fyer to melt wax and reheating it everyday wouldn't that be tempering the wax? Or does dye and fo have to be added before it's tempered?

[dixiegal]

Forgot to add, the reason I'm asking is I had some test candles that burned right. Then made wicked candles and they didn't,in going over my notes the only difference I can find is for the new candles I added more wax to the pot and melted it. and poured. With the first candles it was wax that had been heated, and cooled a few times. I'm not sure if this made the change. From what I can find tempering is for appearance I'm not finding info on it helping with burn or throw.

Edited March 19, 2010 by dixiegal

[topofmurrayhill]

Once you have completely melted the wax, any tempering is gone, so what happens in the melter shouldn't make any difference (assuming the wax has completely melted). One melted oil is the same as another. What might cause variations in results is generally what happens in the pot just before you pour it--how it's cooled, what temperature you pour at, and any tempering steps you put it through.

Generally we think of these factors as affecting the appearance of the wax. The connection with burn qualities and scent throw is probably also there, but not as obvious. It's been noticed by a number of people that the changing crystallinity of soy wax might be affecting its burn qualities over time. And of course, whatever is happening to it in the days following pouring (cure time) is affecting the throw. How exactly the pouring technique can help optimize these things isn't clear.

Edited March 19, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[Stella1952]

Once you have completely melted the wax, any tempering is gone, so what happens in the melter shouldn't make any difference (assuming the wax has completely melted). One melted oil is the same as another.

This is not exactly true, otherwise there would be no reason to temper or retemper chocolate, another veggie oil. As the manufacturing temper can be lost, so it can be regained by manipulating the temperature of the wax while melting/pouring.

[Cetacea]

why would you do this?? Wax is not chocolate.

[Stella1952]

why would you do this?? Wax is not chocolate.

Yes. I'm aware that soy wax is not chocolate. :rolleyes2

Use the search tool and read up on vegetable oils. The "bloom" on chocolate happens for the same reasons as the "bloom" on soy wax - it's because they are both polymorphic.

[Cetacea]

Still doesn't make any sense to heat and cool your wax repeatedly. If what you are trying to avoid is the crystalline structure, repeated heating and cooling isn't going to do it, all its going to do is repeatedly change the phase from liquid to solid, not solve anything.

Pour at a cooler temperature rather than "shock" the wax by pouring hot and cooling fast to reduce bloom. It isn't rocket science, why make it harder than it should be?

Polymorphic transitioning is something that is taken care of by the wax companies. Unless you are making your own wax, what is the point?

ETA: Customers are going to repeatedly light the candle anyway, heating and cooling the wax as the candle burns down.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Cetacea

[Stella1952]

Use the search tool

...and if you did, you would have found this post by Jason of Golden Brands discussing tempering for this wax...

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?p=197532&highlight=TEMPERING#post197532

Different crystal phase formation is encouraged/discouraged at different temps. The same process is also affected by dyes and FOs... The concept of tempering (as with chocolate) is to discourage the crystal phase that causes the unwanted appearance and to encourage the growth of the phase crystals that we DO want. This isn't a new concept and there is much discussion on it here as well as on manufacturer's sites.

"Polymorphic transitioning" is mitigated when the manufacturers make the wax. After it is melted to a high enough temp, the wax loses the original tempering in most waxes other than those who claim to have "molecular blueprinting" (not 464, BTW)... thus the benefit in some waxes to retemper the wax.

Edited March 25, 2010 by Stella1952

[Cetacea]

Actually with chocolate its to encourage the crystalline structure due to the milk fats added in....there are numerous studies on polymorphic transitioning in chocolate, I suggest you run a google search and read the abstracts.

And I'll say it again, wax is not chocolate. Consistantly drawing the parallel between soy wax and chocolate is like comparing apples to oranges. They may both be polymorphic but since that is a general term that has various meanings depending on what science you are discussing suffice to say; veggie oils are not the same. Even soy wax is not a solid soy oil since it is blended with other oils to keep it stable (like cottonseed oil).

Constant heating/cooling the wax is part of the candle making process for those of us that melt more than a single batch at a time. Doing it deliberately for 1 batch is a waste of time when you aren't heating it to a high temperature in the first place (high temp being relative to what manufacturers do and what we do). And since soy generally speaking has a lower pouring temp than paraffin or beeswax, why heat your wax so high in the first place? If you pour between 100-140 F why in the world would you heat to beyond 180? It doesn't take 20 odd miutes to add FO, dye and pour. Especially container candles.

IMO and to answer the orginal question: constant heating and cooling happens especially in a turkey fryer. If you want to call it tempering and keep a chart as to how many times the wax has melted, that's up to you. But I like streamlined processes and when I pour its to produce an entire line not a single batch. I personally don't have the time to play around and treat my wax with kidd gloves. If I have to fiddle with wax like Stella is suggesting, I ditch it because I'd never get anything done and I don't have the money to waste if the wax has been "tempered" too many times.

[Stella1952]

Consistantly drawing the parallel between soy wax and chocolate is like comparing apples to oranges

The fat bloom of the two oils is actually quite similar and happens under similar circumstances. For people who are learning about frosting and polymorphism (and probably more than they ever wanted to know in the first place), drawing the parallel between fat bloom on chocolate and frosting on soy wax is an example with which nearly everyone is familiar. If it doesn't do anything for you, simply ignore it. If it makes the light go on for others, why would you have a problem with that?

If you pour between 100-140 F why in the world would you heat to beyond 180?

Who was talking about that in this thread?

You don't have to do anything different - no one is saying or suggesting so. The OP asked a question and the object is to try to answer it, not argue among ourselves about our opinions of one another's methods. You obviously do not think that tempering is important in your operation. Other people have a different opinion. I don't understand the conflict. If you don't want to do it, why should that bother me? If I think it's important, why should that bother you?

[Cetacea]

I have a problem with comparing soy wax to chocolate. The two are not alike in any way. Again, like apples and oranges...they both have similar properties but they are distinctly different.

As for people just starting out, telling them they have to "temper" their wax because its like chocolate is ridiculous.

As with anything related to candlemaking its not rocket science, don't make it harder than it needs to be.

[Stella1952]

I have a problem with comparing soy wax to chocolate. The two are not alike in any way. Again, like apples and oranges...they both have similar properties but they are distinctly different.

The similar properties are what matter.

As for people just starting out, telling them they have to "temper" their wax because its like chocolate is ridiculous.

I don't recall anyone ever telling people they HAVE to temper their wax! Where did you get that notion? Tempering is simply one of several approaches that people use and have reported to help in combating frosting, cauliflowering, etc. People also use additives, mix waxes, etc. in the same endeavor.

As with anything related to candlemaking its not rocket science, don't make it harder than it needs to be.

You're correct: it isn't rocket science - it's oleoscience. Sorry you have a problem with others trying to discuss, learn and understand their products. :undecided

[Cetacea]

You're correct: it isn't rocket science - it's oleoscience.

LMFAO!!! I'm sorry, that is just too funny. Oleoscience isn't even a word. I think you were trying to create a "scientific" term using oleic acid.

The similar properties are what matter.

You mean polymorphic right? Polymorphism is a general term to describe something that has a tendency to have many states depending on temperature and pressure. Poly meaning many and morphic meaning state. In Chemistry its a compound that has 2 distinct crystalline structures. In Biology the simplest example is a frog, it changes states during its lifetime--i.e. tadpol to frog.

Sorry you have a problem with others trying to discuss, learn and understand their products. :undecided

You are quite mistaken. I have absolutely no problem with anyone learning more about their products. I have a problem with someone setting themselves up as an "expert" by tossing around seemingly important words in order to make themselves appear bigger than they really are.

If the mods want to delete this, go right ahead, but I think you should leave the definitions.

[Stella1952]

I'm sorry, that is just too funny. Oleoscience isn't even a word. I think you were trying to create a "scientific" term using oleic acid.

Please don't tell these folks...

http://wwwsoc.nii.ac.jp/jocs/journal-e.html

or the ones who attended the World Congress on oleo science in 2009 and are planning one in 2011 in Toyko...

http://www2.convention.co.jp/wcos2011/

It will be such a jolt to their psyches to learn their field of study is a figment of my imagination!

Polymorphism is a general term to describe something that has a tendency to have many states depending on temperature and pressure. Poly meaning many and morphic meaning state. In Chemistry its a compound that has 2 distinct crystalline structures.

Apparently, judging from discussions at manufacturer's, distributors & user's sites about polymorphism (and there are more than two crystal phases involved with soy wax, BTW), it's an important concept to understand and deal with or Elevance wouldn't have given this presentation about it at The NCA's 35th Annual Meeting with Technical Presentations & 9th Annual Trade Show

I have a problem with someone setting themselves up as an "expert" by tossing around seemingly important words in order to make themselves appear bigger than they really are.

I am no expert, as I have frequently mentioned, but I do my homework and share my experiences. I don't understand what your problem is, but it sounds more personal than pertinent.

Here's another discussion involving 464 wax

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90149

Perhaps you would like to take exception to the advice, observations and recommendations of people posting there, also...

Edited March 27, 2010 by Stella1952

[Ring of Fire]

[lrbd]

:laugh2:you guys are just killing me this week:laugh2::laugh2:Not sure how much I am learning but I sure have been entertained. thanks I need it it this week