Residue with 464-Help?

[topofmurrayhill]

I thought when you add fo it had to be at a higher temp. than 125, also with the soy waxes I have all the directions recommend heating higher than that in the first place. So he means the highest temp this was has to be brought up to is only 125 and the fo's will work fine being added at such a low temp?? I am still fairly new to all of this myself and find this confusing.

Manufacturers try to make their instructions simple, practical and broadly applicable. There's still a lot of variation in what they recommend, what people actually do, and what's possible to do.

I haven't yet tried adding FO at such a low temp, but I think it could work fine. There's a lot of misplaced concern about FO separating or not incorporating properly. FO dissolves easily in soy wax and creates a clear solution. A liquid solution like that will never separate. Fragrance can separate from solid wax, but if anything I suspect that pouring cool could help keep it evenly dispersed because the wax sets up so quickly. Jason may have even said that at one time.

In any event, even if you need to heat the wax up to incorporate additives or whatever, you can still temper it when it cools down.

You can think of solid oil as having a memory. It can exist in different states depending on its temperature history. Every soy candlemaker has seen this. Candles end up looking and even working differently depending on how they were poured and in what environment, and what conditions they were subjected to over time. However, when you melt the oil back to a clear state, that memory is erased and you start over.

Tempering is like controlling the wax's earliest memories in life to influence how it turns out -- hopefully good-looking and well-behaved over time, instead of unkempt and impetuous.

[soy327]

Top, I don't understand this statement you made ----

" However, when you melt the oil back to a clear state, that memory is erased and you start over."

Everything I have read about tempering requires you to heat the wax back up and of course it's going to go back to a clear or liquid state. Can you explain your version of tempering because I also looked up the post from Jason and i'm sure that the wax has to go back to a clear state in that scenario. Am I reading this wrong?:rolleyes2

Linda

[Stella1952]

Tempering is done with veggie oils for many reasons. With chocolate, for example, it's often done to improve the bite and "snap" of the chocolate bar as well as to control the bloom (frosting). With chocolate fudge, however, it's done to improve the texture and consistency of the product as well as control bloom. Both techniques are tempering to control the crystal phase, but the methods and outcome are different.

I am not looking for more "snap" with my soy wax (as the manufacturer might be when producing those beautiful, white flakes), but I am tempering it to have a better consistency and still have a reduction in bloom. The techniques are both tempering, but the methods are different because the desired outcome is different.

I dredged up this old topic about tempering & chocolate and how it may relate to what we need to do with soy wax... In it are two links I found quite useful:

http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/tempering2.htm

http://www.chocolatealchemy.com/temperingmolding.php

HTH

Edited January 28, 2010 by Stella1952

[soy327]

Thanks Stella

[topofmurrayhill]

Everything I have read about tempering requires you to heat the wax back up and of course it's going to go back to a clear or liquid state. Can you explain your version of tempering because I also looked up the post from Jason and i'm sure that the wax has to go back to a clear state in that scenario. Am I reading this wrong?

Stella's version isn't really a version. She's just misunderstood the idea.

In the final step, she's re-melting the wax and losing the temper before pouring. That's where the "memory" of all her previous steps is erased. Melted wax is just melted wax; at 165 degrees, it's all the same if you pour it into a container. Tempering involves pouring cool. You can heat the wax until it's clear to add FO, dye and additives if you need to, but the tempering steps happen later when the wax starts to get cloudy.

There might be advantages to following Jason's first step exactly, but it isn't always practical and it isn't strictly necessary. Besides skipping it, you also have a close alternative: use part of the wax to dissolve the other ingredients, cool it down, then add the remaining soy flakes and resume with the instructions as written.

The next step says to cool the wax down to 100. At that point the soy oil is solidifying into different crystal forms, or polymorphs. There are three basic crystal types: alpha, beta-prime and beta. Those are in order of increasing size, increasing melting point, and increasing stability. All of them are in the wax to varying degrees, but now we want to change the proportions.

The next step is to raise the temperature to 115. The wax remains cloudy at that temperature because the most stable crystals have a higher melting point. Those stick around while the less stable crystals melt or transform.

When the wax is subsequently cooled and poured, the more stable crystal forms act as nuclei to help the wax set up into a more stable state, more resistant to frosting.

I'm not sure that the temperatures Jason provided would be the best for every soy wax, because the composition of the wax and the melting points of the crystals could vary.

Edited January 28, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[soy327]

So what if you leave it until its totally solidified and bring it back to a slushy stage. then pour. (the color and fO put in on the 1st step).?

Linda

[topofmurrayhill]

So what if you leave it until its totally solidified and bring it back to a slushy stage. then pour. (the color and fO put in on the 1st step).?

There's a possibility that those wax flakes right out of the box contain better seed crystals for tempering than the wax that's totally solidied in the pot, so it could make a difference but I don't know for sure.

That uncertainty underscores the tricky part about the idea of tempering soy wax for candlemaking. The candlemaker working from home doesn't have the time or the tools to optimize the process except somewhat by trial and error.

[soy327]

O.K. Thanks Top Between you and Stella I think I know what I'm trying to do now. I am happy with my Quilted JJ with no color and ready to sell a few (also had friends testing for me too) my next step is to be able to add color that doesn't frost like hell:laugh2::laugh2:I'm moving on to the next learning experience. In the wonderful world of candlemaking.

Linda

[Stella1952]

Stella's version isn't really a version. She's just misunderstood the idea.

In the final step, she's re-melting the wax and losing the temper before pouring.

Stella certainly does understand and you are piecing together what you think I am doing from posts made over a period of time. My testing is ongoing and my procedures and ingredients may vary from time to time. While I have given a general outline of what I do, I have been deliberately vague on the details because people would try to take short cuts and follow that like some sort of "recipe" instead of testing and discovering what works best for them.

That uncertainty underscores the tricky part about the idea of tempering soy wax for candlemaking. The candlemaker working from home doesn't have the time or the tools to optimize the process except somewhat by trial and error.

Now you're talking sense. Edited January 29, 2010 by Stella1952

[topofmurrayhill]

Stella certainly does understand and you are piecing together what you think I am doing from posts made over a period of time. My testing is ongoing and my procedures and ingredients may vary from time to time. While I have given a general outline of what I do, I have been deliberately vague on the details because people would try to take short cuts and follow that like some sort of "recipe" instead of testing and discovering what works best for them.

Top understands that you're trying to salvage your credibility.

You've been clear enough to give people the wrong idea. While I understand your exhuberance, you could show a little more restraint in throwing around fancy terminology that you don't quite grasp.

[Stella1952]

Top understands that you're trying to salvage your credibility.

Top doesn't understand squat. It isn't his forte to try to understand anyone else's point of view - only to challenge, criticize and argue.

Whatever...:rolleyes2 I didn't think the point of this forum was to pit people/personalities against one another... I was under the impression it was about sharing our experiences - what works for us and what doesn't. You wanna be right, so, OK Top - you're the winner - you can be "right." I'm simply a foolish woman who lives in the middle of an overgrown pasture who works only with veggie waxes. I don't know sh*t from shineola nor correct terminology nor anything worth writing because you will always find SOMETHING to disagree with... You are DA MAN. :rolleyes2

[Catlover]

[Sharon in KY]

There goes Top and Stella again. Good thing I don't understand Greek .....:rolleyes2*dead horse*

[sherry]

Good thing I don't understand Greek

I Do But still no understand :laugh2:

[soy327]

It's in the past.

[Stella1952]

That was so January ago...

[Sharon in KY]

That was so January ago...

OMG, didn't notice the date. I thought here we go again. But most of all I thought "those two sure like to type" :embarasse

[Catlover]

Sorry to have bumped the topic. Just came across it and couldn't help but voice my opinion. :rolleyes2

Love, love, love!!

[soy327]

Peace:yay:

[gabriellel66]

OK, resurrecting this because I read through it all and my head hurts. Could be lack of coffee, could just be me.

I'm using 464 in a variety of containers. I'm really happy with the H/CT and manage to get a smooth top about 90% of the time. My only issue is the hang-up. Haven't had any complaints, but if I can get rid of it, I'd be happy. Catlover, did you have any success?

[Catlover]

I actually haven't used the coconut oil yet...I've been finishing making my individual candles on the last few scents I'm testing, so haven't made any big batches of anything. I have less residue with some fo's than others, and I think I'm just getting used to the way it looks! I don't have any hang, just the buttermilky look on the glass I mentioned at the beginning. Do you have chunks or just the same kind of residue?

I get smooth tops most of the time also, but depending on the fo, I sometimes see sinkholes after burning, so I am going to try the coconut oil for that little issue. This time of year I have so much yard work to do, the candles have been getting a little bit ignored!

Edited April 20, 2010 by Catlover

[gabriellel66]

Yep, it's what you said--the buttermilk effect. Which doesn't bother me, either, but I'd be happy to see it gone.

I have the same problem with some oils upon setting--kind of like pockmarking. I thought it might be the red liquid dye I used on one (because all the other candles I poured at the same time and at the same temp all had smooth tops), but I used the same dye on another fragrance and that top is very smooth. Although, I might use another red dye on the "problem" fragrance to see if the pockmarking occurs. And then, try the CO :smiley2: