rebeccajo99 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 I have done a search, but cannot find anything. I am trying to put beeswax into my soap to get a harder bar, but I am getting the opposite. My bars with just the base and FO are much harder than the bars with base, FO and Beeswax. Can somebody please help me in figuring out what I am doing wrong??? 1 lb of base1/2 oz of fo1 T beeswax Heated in a double boiler until all melted (which was around 175) and the put in my fo and poured into my mold. I did cover the melting pot as well. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Those measurements look ok to me, have you tried letting the bars cure for any length of time? I find that I usually get a pretty good result letting the finished bars cure overnight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccajo99 Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 I have had them cut and drying on my drying rack for almost 48 hours now. I poured those yesterday morning and they are not getting any harder. I am totally baffled on this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Hmmm. That is.. umm. Interesting! Was it a plain M&P base or did it have something extra like coco butter/shea/etc... in it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharon in KY Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 Maybe your M&P is cooking to much or to high a temp. since Bees Wax is much harder to melt. Maybe melt before adding to heated M&P just to see if it makes a difference. Seems like more than 1 Tab is added to a lb to make it harder but not positive about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 The other thing you can try for harder bars is Olive Oil. I know that pre-blended Olive Oil M&P is some of the hardest I've ever used. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccajo99 Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 Thanks for your suggestions. I will try to melt the wax before adding the base. I will do that this afternoon while my boys are napping. I'll post my findings.This is just plain white base... nothing special. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 rebecca-- are you using the Essentials by Catalina base? I finally got hard bars by adding palm stearic. Its dirt cheap and I think a much nicer ingredient than beeswax. Certainly simpler to use. I just sprinkle 1 tsp of palm stearic over my cut up soap prior to melting it. It melts right in with the base. No guesswork like with beeswax. I got a lb of palm stearic for $2.99 at Candles and Supplies http://newcart.candlesandsupplies.com/Store/Products/Candles/PID-STEARIC.aspxMost soap suppliers carry it. I'm sure Elements has it, WSP has it too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccajo99 Posted September 11, 2009 Author Share Posted September 11, 2009 Candybee... I am using the Essintials by Catilina base. Somebody else mentioned to use that in another thread that I had questions on. Does is scare customers away when you put an "acid" on the label??? Also, is all stearic acids the same, I was looking at the one at Peak, but it does not say palm, it just says Vegi origin. I have to place an order with Peak here soon and would like to order it from there if I cannot get the beeswax to work. I just poured another batch. This time i melted the beeswax (i used the microwave since when I tried to do it in my melt pot, it wasn't heavy enough to go into the water) and then added my fo to the melted wax (i read to do that on another post). I removed my melted base from the double boiler and then added my wax/fo mixture. Stired until all the lumps were out and poured into my loaf pan. If I had everything measured right, the temp of the base did not exceed 150- 25 degrees lower than adding everything in the pan.I will cut tonight after the fireworks and let cure over night. Praying that this works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted September 11, 2009 Share Posted September 11, 2009 (edited) Rebecca- Palm stearic is stearic acid derived from palm oil. Its perfectly safe and should not scare off your customers. The word 'acid' refers to the amino acids found in oils that are naturally occurring in plants and animals. Plants manufacture their own amino acids just like we do in our own bodies.If Peaks says 'veggie' stearic then its of plant origin. I'm sure palm is one of the sources but you would have to ask Peaks to be sure.Anyway it works great at hardening CP and MP soap. Use up to 3% per lb. Thats from 1-3 tsp per lb. I only used 1 tsp because I mixed this base with my other white base. If I were using only the base from Essentials by Catalina I would probably use 2 tsp. But you should experiment and see what works best for you.Good luck with the beeswax. If it doesn't work try the stearic acid.:smiley2: Edited September 11, 2009 by Candybee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccajo99 Posted September 12, 2009 Author Share Posted September 12, 2009 well, it has been almost 24 hours since pouring the soap. I was hopeful because I could demold it after 2 hours which the last time I did the beeswax, it took almost 6 before I could demold. I just looked at it and it is as soft as can be... feels just like when I demolded it. My husband had fun with it and completly squished it between his fingers, so now there is a nice creater in one of my test bars. Don't know why my beeswax isn't working but off to try the palm stearic that Candybee suggested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairieannie Posted September 12, 2009 Share Posted September 12, 2009 Something is wrong. There is no way that in the amounts you have used you should have a soft bar of soap.. at least not soft enough that it can be squished together with fingers. I have honestly never had that happen. I do use the EBC base most of the time, and I've never had it behave that way. The beeswax additive should have made it quite a bit harder, not softer. Wish I knew what was going on here.. Just out of curiosity, what kind of bees wax did you use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccajo99 Posted September 12, 2009 Author Share Posted September 12, 2009 Something is wrong. There is no way that in the amounts you have used you should have a soft bar of soap.. at least not soft enough that it can be squished together with fingers. I have honestly never had that happen. I do use the EBC base most of the time, and I've never had it behave that way. The beeswax additive should have made it quite a bit harder, not softer. Wish I knew what was going on here.. Just out of curiosity, what kind of bees wax did you use?I wish I knew too. I have tried several batches (3 this week and 2 last week) trying to figure it out. I purchased the wax from Bitter Creek North. Its the white pellet kind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairieannie Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I wish I knew too. I have tried several batches (3 this week and 2 last week) trying to figure it out. I purchased the wax from Bitter Creek North. Its the white pellet kind.That should be fine for bees wax. It makes me wonder if you got a crap batch of soap from EBC. Just so strange.. especially since I've been using their base for almost 5 years now, and just have no problems with it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccajo99 Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 unfortuantly since this is my first time ordering from EBC, I have nothing to compare it to It works great (at least I think) using it by itself and with FO added. I am doing an extreamly abuse test of one with just base and FO and so far I am impressed.If the Palm Stearic does not work, then I know something is wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 I think it sounds strange myself to have your soap end up softer after adding beeswax. I agree it could be possible you got a bad batch.I do notice that my base is soft to the touch before working with it. But after adding the stearic, olive oil, and coconut oil I am getting a very good hard bar. My point is if you are adding hardening additives to this base by Essentials it should be getting harder-- not softer as PrairieAnnie points out. She uses the base a lot and knows what she is talking about.Try adding the beeswax again. Only this time add only the beeswax and no other additives. If the bars still come out soft you will know its either the base or the beeswax. Easier to narrow it down that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccajo99 Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 I will try that either tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for the help, I will let you know what I discover doing just base and beeswax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted September 13, 2009 Share Posted September 13, 2009 Rebecca-- I just reread this thread and realised that you heated your base up to 175 degrees? Is that correct?I would watch the temp on your base as its melting. I don't let mine go higher than 145-150 degrees. I do know that too much heat can damage the base but I have never heated it that high to see. I always watched the temps because my molds can only take the melted soap at 135 degrees. So depending on your mold the high temp could also damage that.I use a candy thermometer I got at Target for around $5. Works instantly up to 300 degrees. I'm sure Walmart has cheap ones too if you don't have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccajo99 Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 Candybee- When I was trying to melt the beeswax in the same pot as my base... it was getting up to 175 as that was when all the wax and base was melted. When I seporated the two (beeswax in microwave and base in double boiler... the base did not excede 150. I knew from watching my soap making videos that I should not heat the soap up too much and now I cannot find that video back to find out what temp was too high. I have a thermometer that stays in the pot while the base is melting. What should be the hotest my base gets? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccajo99 Posted September 13, 2009 Author Share Posted September 13, 2009 never mind on how hot... i just reread your post :smiley2: I am improsses right now of trying it beeswax and base only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccajo99 Posted September 15, 2009 Author Share Posted September 15, 2009 Just thought I would give you an update on what happened with just base and beeswax. I got a hard bar... not as hard as I would like, but at least t was hard. So now I am really confused... is there a reaction going on between the fo that I am using and the beesewax??? I was going to try a different fo and see what happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted September 17, 2009 Share Posted September 17, 2009 (edited) I've never heard of a FO causing a M&P soap to go soft unless you added too much. Even then it should only effect the lather and not necessarily the hardness.Sounds like you are on the right track. I had to experiment to get the base to make a hard soap. Try a little bit more BW to get the right hardness you want. Or-- get some coconut oil and add a tsp per lb along with the beeswax. The combo should make a nice hard bar.I think I would try a different FO. That base will definitely take FO cause I have made several lbs of soap using it and a variety of FOs. I've been using 1 tbs of FO per lb. Edited September 17, 2009 by Candybee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rebeccajo99 Posted September 17, 2009 Author Share Posted September 17, 2009 I've been using 1 tbs of FO per lb.Is it better to use TBS to measure out the FO... I have been weighing out a 1/2 oz? I am hoping to sit down and experiment some more once my stearic gets here (should be today) between that, bw and coconut oil, I hope to get my hard bar by the end of the month. (I have to set deadlines or else I don't get motivated and keep pushing things off)I have an unrealted question to beeswax for you... how long should I let a bar sit before I determine it marketable... (provided i did my testing on lather, scent, color, moisture... all that stuff) I don't know now long I should let it sit to make sure nothing goes wrong with it... kindof like a shelf-life test.- does that make sense:confused: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candybee Posted September 18, 2009 Share Posted September 18, 2009 Once you have your recipe down pat and have tested it out for yourself I don't see why you can't start selling your soap.Also-- even when you think you have your recipe just right you may find that you still want to tweak it to perfect it. I keep a recipe book for each soap I make and put it in a notebook. I have lots of notes written on the pages. LOL My recipes are also in a computer file so I can update them.If you are making large amounts of soap then its best to measure by an accurate scale. I always measure my base that way. I prefer to measure by using the tablespoons set I have for small amounts. I have one of those kitchen sets with the tbs, tsp, 1/2 tsp, and the 1/4 tsp. I use it all the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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