Pasteurized vs. Unpasteurized?

[Judette]

Begin to say that I do not sell soap. Under the recomendations of Prarieannie I have added canned and fresh from the goat milk to M&P base. Which I guess is not recommended, according to another forum. Now I have a question now that I have started CP. If I add fresh, unpasteurized goat's milk to CP and prevent gel, so temp never gets hot, added milk at trace or not to lye water is this okay? What is the long term effect on the soap? Say after cure of 4-6 months?

[ChrisR]

I've used fresh goat's milk from a local farmer in all my CP soaps since I started several years ago and have never had a bar go bad. I have a few bars left of a face soap I made just for me 3 years ago and it's a wonderful bar!! I never gel my soap.....it goes right in the freezer as soon as it's poured.

[gardengoat]

That's all I use is unpasterized from my goats. Generally soap at 6% superfat, most go thru gel; but have some that don't-not a problem. I have several bars tucked away that are several years old -no odor problem at all with them. Now when you start wanting to make GM lotions, you definately will need to pasteurize the milk.

[Judette]

Apparently there is a question of the legality of it being unpasteurized, and then selling, which I do not do. I, personally, see that there is no problem, since we are not injesting the product. Alot of EOs and infused weeds and such cannot be injested but they can safely be applied to the skin in varying amounts.

[gardengoat]

In the state of Missouri it is legal for me to sell raw goat's milk to individuals for human consumption. I can not pasteurize it unless I have a state approved processing plant. Nor can I sell to health food stores for resell.

I can however, tell folks who buy from how to heat treat or pasteurize & what they do with it once they get home as far as deciding to drink raw or pasteurize is still legal thus far.

Once your milk has gone thru the lye stage it is no longer a viable product to drink. You will not be selling it to be consumed orally-which is where the whole controversy is whether to consume as a food product --raw or pasteurized.

There are some states that do not allow the sale of milk whatsoever, some that have regs for animal use only. www.realmilk.com is usually pretty up-to-date on what the regs are for each state.

hth

[gardengoat]

Forgot to add that the state regs are for the milk producers(farmers) & retail outlets selling milk for drinking purposes. You are producing soap with it & won't fall under any of those guidelines. However, the www.realmilk.com will give you an idea how hard it is going to be find fresh milk to purchase from an individual farmer.

[CareBear]

If you are referring to the Soap Making Forum, *I* was not saying that you shouldn't use it - I was asking if there were legal implications - since "for human consumption" is a rather vague term.

I called some people in the NYS government (My BIL with the USDA "diary board," then the NYS Department of Health). Basically there don't seem to be any regulations regarding it, and that "for human consumption" means actually eating or drinking (aka ingesting) and not "using". Which was good to know. Now different states may vary.

So I was referred back to the FDA who doesn't seem to have a stance on using raw milk in SOAP. In syndet bars, though, there may be issues with selling (yes I know - you are not selling - but some do) due to the potential for a high bacterial load. But it's not something they would come after a seller for unless there was a reported problem - then, as with any cosmetic, the onus is on the producer to make a safe product.

This said, I was told that NY State DOES regulate the selling and giving away raw milk - independent of the intent of the recipient. Many other states do as well.

Let me add that I personally don't care what you do with your soap or your milk. I was asking because I wanted to understand the legal implications and hoped that you already knew. I never said you were doing anything wrong. Like I said - I don't care either way. Nor do I care if you use 7 grams or 7 cups. I didn't comment on you using 7 tablespoons in a pound of soap - it's your soap. I was looking for information - not trying to put you on the defensive.

[Judette]

I am not on the defensive. I had followed suggestions by PA of adding raw GM to M&P. Her suggestion was 3 T per #. I merely stated that I had incorporated more with no ill effects. I do know that I can purchase raw GM locally. I do not have to, it is given to me. I do not know all of the effects of adding it to any soap product. Could the overall use of it be harmful? I believe you are reading more into what I have stated. Although I do not sell, for those that do, if it is legal in my state and an end product containing this ingredient was sold out of state, that was not legal, could there be ramifications. Does their label state that they have added unpasteurized GM?

Also this is why I am asking if it is okay in non-gelled CP soap. I am not a chemist and do not pretend to be. However, if the milk does not go through a heat phase, could it still possibly not be a good idea to use. Should the milk be heated prior to use?

I also did not say I used 7 T. I stated 5-6 T.

[CareBear]

I believe it is perfectly safe in CP soap. I am a chemist, of sorts (well, my degree is and I used to work in product development). the high pH of the lye solution will kill anything concerning. It's not the heat - it's the pH.

Even in HP soap the high pH there may also be protective but I cannot swear to that.

Sorry, I must have remembered the 7 wrong.

[gardengoat]

Judette, the state milk board regs concern themselves with regulating milk facilities-producing & processing milk for drinking & making cheese, yogurt, etc. They regulate how you sell, who you can sell it to and what is involved with importing/exporting with other states....as something that is going to be eaten.

Once you have made soap with the milk-it is really no longer milk (you have saponified most of the fat-cured out most of the water-dispersed all the goodies thru out the soap) & it is not going to be sold as food - so your soap will not fall under any of the milk board regs. You are a soap and/or cosmetic manufacturer....whole different set of regs to follow. And will be under your city/state, retail/wholesale regs if you go to selling.

As far as safety-the soaping process is going to take care of any bactieria....by the pH change, that CareBear mentions-and by any heating process it goes thru-a hot long gel stage will do it as would a hot process. Pastuerize milk is just milk that has been heated up hot enough & long enough to kill a certain amount of bacteria to deem it safe.

Heat the milk to 145° F degress for 30 minutes or 165°F for 15 sec is long enough to home pastuerize if you are more comfortable soaping with it that way. Won't hurt it at all.

There are plenty of bad goat/cow farmers out there-both with care of their animals & how they handle their milk. Even if you know nothing about goats-you should try to see the place that is producing the milk you are using. You will be able to tell by the general appearance of the animal how they are cared for. Ask about their milk handling procedure, how they milk & what they do to get it in their refrigerator--and if you can come at a time & watch them milk.

Most goat folk love an opportunity to talk, brag, & show their goats. Most love to teach someone who are interested in buying goats how to take care of them & what to look for in the type of goat you are after. Can ask about how they handle withdrawal times when they have to use an antibiotic on a sick goat....or what & how often they get dewormed--again what sort of withdrawal times. What do they do with the milk if one puts a hoof in the pail. Anything that you wonder about ask--they should not get offended. If they don't allow any sort of farm visits--would consider that a red flag.