lotion preservative question

[eva]

I have just started out at lotion making and have a few questions about preservatives.

I would so much like to do all my products without any preservatives - so if the lotion is packaged in a bottle with a pump, so that people will not get their hands (and with that bacteria etc.) into the bottle would it be possible to go without a preservative? Or is the lotion itself (oils & water) "programmed" to grow some nasty stuff if no preservatives are used?

I wouldn't mind a shorter shelf life - how short would you say a shelf life for preservative-free lotion would be?

Thanks for any input.

Best,

Eva

[ChrisR]

ANY hydrous product (made with water) needs a preservative,no ifs, ands or buts about it!!! Just because you can't see the germs or bateria growing in it, doesn't mean they aren't there and they can cause some serious problems. A lotion made without a preservative should be kept in the fridge and used up within 7 days IMO. I'm sure you don't want to make any unsafe product, so add a GOOD preservative and have it challange tested to make sure it's safe for your customers!!

[TheQueen]

If your lotion contains water it is always a good idea to use a preservative because all manner of undesirables can and will take up residence. And wouldn't you much rather use a preservative than risk those nasties? I sure would. However, that said, if you're making fairly small amounts for your personal use, you may keep the bulk of your lotion in the refrigerator for a short duration (a few weeks). If I were selling lotion I would NEVER make it without preservative; that's just too large a risk. And read the descriptions of each preservative under consideration very carefully so you use the proper one for your formulation.

[dirtybirdsoaps]

Not to hi-jack this thread, but are there any preservatives that are vegan, and if so what is the best kind to use for lotion? I tried researching but all the searching and technical terms just made me go crazy

[eva]

good question, dirtybird.. I know that citric acid, grapefruit seed oil, alcohol among others for example are used as preservatives. And there are others I am sure. But I do not have a recipe how to use them so that it would do the trick.

Do not worry folks, I will go and use a paraben-free preservative, but I am most certain products (and very high end indeed) are made without preservatives or they use natural ones (Dr. Hauchka for example what I myself use)

Probably what makes it possible are the high-tech sterile laboratories they use which we are not able to do.:undecided

[ChrisR]

Here's some basic info. about the difference between preservatives and antioxidants you should read........

http://home.earthlink.net/~skinesscentuals/Preserve.htm

[TheQueen]

good question, dirtybird.. I know that citric acid, grapefruit seed oil, alcohol among others for example are used as preservatives. And there are others I am sure. But I do not have a recipe how to use them so that it would do the trick.

Do not worry folks, I will go and use a paraben-free preservative, but I am most certain products (and very high end indeed) are made without preservatives or they use natural ones (Dr. Hauchka for example what I myself use)

Probably what makes it possible are the high-tech sterile laboratories they use which we are not able to do.:undecided

I'd like to see their ingredients list if you're thinking they don't use preservatives. Believe me, and a lot of others here, I certainly would NEVER purchase a lotion product that does not contain a preservative no matter how high end they are. Sterile laboratories don't make for a bacteria-free lotion out here in the real world. And you need to be really careful if you are thinking of using citric acid, grapefruit seed oil or alcohol as a strong broad-spectrum preservative. It ain't necessarily so.

You need to do a quite a bit of research about preservatives (and consequences of the lack thereof) before jumping in to this little venture. And, as ChrisR said, be sure you have your lotion challenge tested for the safety and protection of your customers.

[kidsngarden]

ditto to what the queen and Chris R have said. there is a huge misconception about what is a preservative and what is an antioxidant (antioxidants are used for the most part to prevent oils rancidity, but to not prevent growth of nasties like bacteria and fungus)

[eva]

People, please read my post - I said I will use a paraben-free preservative and I have been in this business long enough to know what I am doing. I started this thread just for an arguments sake. But some of you again start preaching just like to a child.

As for the Hauschka ingredients - a quote from their web page: / Our Eco-conscious packaging and natural botanical preservatives help keep products fresh without the use of chemical additives./

and one ingredients list here just as an example -

Full Ingredient List for Quince Day Cream

Water/Aqua, Prunus Armeniaca (Apricot) Kernel Oil, Anthyllis Vulneraria Extract, Pyrus Cydonia (Quince) Seed Extract, Alcohol, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Root Extract, Glycerin, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter), Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Cetearyl Alcohol, Persea Gratissima (Avocado) Oil, Althaea Officinalis (Marsh Mallow) Extract, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Beeswax/Cera Flava, Pyrus Cydonia (Quince) Wax, Lecithin, Bentonite, Hamamelis Virginiana (Witch Hazel) Extract, Fragrance/Parfum (Essential Oil), Citral, Citronellol, Geraniol, Limonene, Linalool, Eugenol, Benzyl Benzoate, Xanthan Gum

The only ingredients they mention to have preservative qualities are alcohol and some essential oil compounds with antimicrobial properties.

So go figure...:undecided And I am sure they know what they are doing as they have been doing this since 1940s

BUT as said - I am not saying I will do it.

Best,

eva

[TheQueen]

OK, let's just say, for arguments' sake, that you have listed ALL the ingredients in this particular product and you have since I've been to that website and checked out this product myself. Next, just for arguments' sake, let's say that you claim the products you have highlighted in RED will have preservative qualities because Dr. Haushka has them in his products and he would certainly know what he's doing since he's been doing it since 1940. I did just a smidgeon of research (googled 'em) and here is what I found:

anthyllis vulneraria: kidney vetch (no preservative qualities)

alcohol: WHAT KIND OF ALCOHOL?

glycerin: humectant and solvent (no preservative qualities)

cetearyl alcohol: emulsifying wax (no preservative qualities)

lecithin: antioxidant (no preservative qualities)

bentonite: clay generated from alteration of volcanic ash (no preservative qualities)

hamamelis virginiana: common witch hazel (no preservative qualities)

citral: used in perfumes and flavorings and the manufacture of other chemicals (no preservative qualities)

citronellal: imparts perfume or flavoring (no preservative qualities)

geraniol: antioxidant (no preservative qualities)

limonene: used as solvent or cleaner

linalool: scent compound used in fragrance and perfumery (no preservative qualities)

eugenol: used in perfumes, flavorings, EOs, dental fillings and cement material as antiseptic (no preservative qualities)

benzyl benzoate: used to treat lice and scabies infestations--PESTICIDE (no preservative qualities)

xanthan gum: stablizer/binder for cosmetics products (no preservative qualities)

This could indicate one of two things: (1) this product contains NO preservatives, in which case I would be scared to death of the microbes growing in it; or (2) the listing is incomplete, in which case the customers are being deceived outright.

You started this thread by saying "I have just started out at lotion making and have a few questions about preservatives." But when we answered your questions in an informative and straight forward manner, you say we treated you like a child. The childlike behavior here is yours because we apparently didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. Rather, we told you what you NEEDED to hear. The information provided to you was given in the spirit of helpfulness and concern for both you and your customers, be they family, friends or paying customers. You would do well to remember that.

[ChrisR]

Obviously their use of the phrase "no chemical additives" is an out and out lie, as that is exactly what benzyl benzoate is, just as Queen posted. It IS a chemical and it IS a pesticide.

You started this post for 'arguments sake' and that's what you got, hello!! You can do whatever your little heart desires with your lotion, as long as I'm not one of your customers, I really don't care!!

[kidsngarden]

If you know what you are doing then why ask??? To argue??? This topic has been brought up a gazillion times by noobs on this board so what exactly did you expect would happen? There would be a bunch of folks coming on and saying, oh, you are right, no preservatives needed? Hmmm, and that Hauschka is one darn lucky guy that no one has had any nasties in his lotion. OR maybe the pesticide in his lotion kills other stuff too in which case would make it some sort of preservative anyway...

But that's pure speculation, I'm glad you will be using a preservative.

[eva]

I do not want to drag this thread any longer, but I want to make just one more remark.

I guess you should sometimes just think about the fact that we (you and I) do not always necessarily know ALL the answers - the answer isn't always "it cannot be done, it is dangerous as death and all people who say otherwise are liars"

It is a fact that there are holistic skin care companies around and at this point I have no reason to believe that they lie about their ingredients list.

I have used that abovementioned cream and many other products from that line for more than two years and my skin is doing just fine.

But you are right - as long as we do not know the answers we should stick to safe and tested ways.

[kidsngarden]

I have thought about that. I think it probably is possible that if you combine a number of ingredients that by themselves have no preservative qualities that it could be possible to form something that does - I mean it is how they end up with the preservatives we use today right?

But here we have to be careful what we say because we do not have labs and massive amount of cash to test all these theories. We need to stick to what we know - so when raising the question of whether or not we can make lotion without a preservative the answer here for us indies is always going to have to be no. AND the advice will be given to have your recipes challenge tested at least once to be sure your preservative is working AND to be as clean as clean can be when making lotion. That's a good thing because hopefully people will listen and we will have less customers breaking out in gross fungus and bacterial infections. Even if I didn't make the lotion - that person is less likely to buy from me because they had a bad experience with another indie. they are going to stick to the jergens which will be bad for all of us.