fortuna Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Hi,I am finding after testing that certain fragrance oils will rust metal tin containers. After some months I find that the rust seeps into the wax creating dis-colorizations in waxes that do not have dyes. Are there certain properties in the oils that create these reactions whereas others don't? Do some fragrant oils have water in them?Because of shipping and the need to keep overhead down metal tins are important. I am continuing to test and have decided to drop fragrance oils that are incompatible. This despite some of the fragrant oils being popular.My other solution is separating the fragrance wax from the tin but using a mold and wrapping the candle in plastic. The candle customer would unwrap it prior to use of course. The problem is I would need molds that would release soybean (Golden Foods 444) from the molds. Any ideas?Nathan YoungP.S I am interested in gaining candling, soap (shampoo and bar soap) as well as lotion crafter contacts. Perhaps by online instant messenger or even here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugtussle Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Search "rust tins" Yes, it happens in some wax FO combos. Carole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sally Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Search "rust tins" Yes, it happens in some wax FO combos. CaroleEspecially those with a fairly high vanilla content, & even those with a low vanilla content.....& sometimes with a f.o that you are convinced will not cause the tin to rust! Sally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CareBear Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 It was suggested that I coat the inside of the tins with modge podge to prevent it, but I cannot get the stuff to stick - it just beads up like water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReneeM Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 what about coating the inside with a clear krylon spray paint? You would have to let it totally dry before you filled the tin and even then I'm not sure about the flamability (is that a word? LOL) of it once it is dry. There should be some kind of sealer that you could put in the tins tho. Please keep in mind I only use glass containers, so I could be way off base here. I have been once or twice! LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortuna Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 Using a 3rd party substance increases labor costs per unit (and or just my time personally) and seems as if it could not be safe. It's best I stick with what does no rust. With regards to other scents I am making a hand painted ceramic candle container series. Ceramic does not rust but costs the consumer more.I am contacting scent makers and asking that they forward a note to their chemist(s). Finding just what makes metal tin rust and avoiding the base substances is best. Nathan Young Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted February 17, 2008 Share Posted February 17, 2008 Veggie waxes have a high acid content in the first place; certain fragrance oils (there is no "fragrant oil" nor is water used in candle scenting oils - water and wax do not mix) may be corrosive also. I have NOT had a problem with the tins and FOs that I have used to make them, but I have had problems with some I purchased along the way. Nathan, perhaps the problem might lie in the source of your FOs. Have you tried the same problem FOs from different companies? I have found there can be a WORLD of difference from one supplier to the next. Not every FO from any particular supplier is going to be a winner. Your tin source might also be the issue - not all tins are created equal! Have you sampled them from different sources? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortuna Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 I think there are tins that are made for candle making. The more general run the the mill tins are cheaper. I have sampled multiple tins from different makers.I find that the soybean wax is not the issue. It's the fragrant oils. I don't think it has to do with the smell type of a fragrant oil but some sort of base ingredient used.Testing side by side I notice more expensive and very nice oils are creating the rust whereas other sources of the oils there oils not near as much. That is why I am contacting the chemist to see as they should know all of the technical stuff associated with the reactionary properties of tins rusting and their ingredient bases which would effect it.I am using plain varnish tins. I need to order 500 - 1,000 at a time from any source that is new and price per unit is a major factor. I am employing people with disabilities so my overhead is high. That's why I decided to convert to tins anyways because it lowers the CPU enough to where others can be included to make the candles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortuna Posted February 17, 2008 Author Share Posted February 17, 2008 From CandlesAndSupplies there 18 ounce metal tins rusted with my pouring some fragrant oil that also rusts from a new tin source. CandlesAndSupplies I am sure sells metal tins for candle making. I believe I can test future additions by pouring fragrant oils in the tins directly and see what happens.There must be some sort of differential technical spec that I can learn so that I can talk to suppliers before ordering to assure compatibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CareBear Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Suppliers may have difficulty answering your question because the fragrance manufacturers do not tell them what chemicals compose the fragrance oils. I work for a fragrance manufacturer and we have to test our fragrance in a customer's base and in their packaging for compatibility and stability because it's very hard to predict even when we KNOW each component. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortuna Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 I was hoping to avoid the costs of testing.Sample oilsTest containersIt all adds up and I am frugal so I am not happy about it.If you work for a fragrance company perhaps we can arrange a buy power arrangement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CareBear Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Sorry, the company I work for only deals with huge companies like P&G, not little guys like us, or even mid-range manufacturers.And yea, it all adds up - but the rest of us are paying our dues and frankly we expect everyone else to too. You'll see a lot of posts about that as you read through this forum - here in candles and most definitely over on the B&B side.Besides, there are SO many variables - waxes, wicks, oils, manufacturers, batches, additives, environment, dyes, containers, technique... that what works for me may not work for the person next to me.But if you run into difficulty don't be afraid to ask, just be sure to include the information requested in artcwolf's post... http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67705 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortuna Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 The majority have not rusted. At least they are not all rusting. I'm making around 5,000 candles the next 5-6 months as stores want a hundred or more in each. Already did testing but was disapointed I will not get to include some popular scents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugtussle Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Fortuna, did you search for rust in tins on this board? There is a lot of material covered here. The only wax that does not rust in tins is IGI6006. I pour about 10,000 6 oz tins per year & the only wax that does not rust with vanilla, heavy scents is 6006. You did not say what wax you use, but some waxes just react with some FOs. Because of this, I use 2 waxes in my candle business & it's a lot of trouble, but it works. Carole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortuna Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 Fortuna, did you search for rust in tins on this board? There is a lot of material covered here. The only wax that does not rust in tins is IGI6006. I pour about 10,000 6 oz tins per year & the only wax that does not rust with vanilla, heavy scents is 6006. You did not say what wax you use, but some waxes just react with some FOs. Because of this, I use 2 waxes in my candle business & it's a lot of trouble, but it works. CaroleYes I did as well as many times on google and yahoo. The actual wax however does not seem to be the issue. For over 4 months other franceses and this wax has worked fine. It's just 3-4 in pre-production giving problems.I strongly feel after over 4 months of testing that the wax is not the problem. It seems to be the more dense fragrant oils. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortuna Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 If the Tins give me many more problems after more testing I am not going to do metal tins. I would rather do ceramic containers with lids, all hand painted.Many of the tins have had no problems.Golden Foods 444 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugtussle Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Here's one thread:http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4016&highlight=rust I'll get you some more. Carolehttp://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6205&highlight=rusthttp://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30913&highlight=rust How many do you want? It is a reaction between some waxes and FOs. Trust me, I know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortuna Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 It is difficult to imagine that wax which is meant to blend with fragrant oils is any different from one wax to the other. No matter how much makes contact with the side of the container a small amount is capable of making it rust if the offending oil is reactive to the tin in that way. 444 is capable of holding, though depending upon the oil, allot of scented candle oils in comparison to at least some other waxes. I use the maximum (1.5 ounce) so as a result offending oils will likely rust the tins faster because of the sure quantities of the offending oils.The offending oils actually rust the tins and it's not simply dis-colorization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burned Out Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 I've had this problem, too. It is definitely caused by certain fragrances, usually those with a lot of vanillin or aldehydes in them, which I know can also cause soap to turn brown. I call these FOs my "rusters" It's a shame, because it's usually the really creamy, buttery scents loaded with vanillin that sell extremely well for me. I've also seen it in a few tropical scents that are heavy on the aldehyde content.The good news is, I've never seen my "rusters" react in glass, just tins. It appears to be some sort of oxidation occuring when vanillin/aldehyde heavy FO comes in contact with the metal. If you really love the FOs, but can't stand the rusting, glass will be okay.I've also noticed that there is a bit less rusting if I use a parasoy. If I'm using soy without any paraffin, there is more rusting. I know that many of the soy wax manufacturers recommend keeping soy wax away from oxidizers - so I've always assumed it's probably more vulnerable to oxidizing. I've found that the candle tins from Specialty Bottle don't rust as much. Their tins are coated for use with acidic foods. They still rust somewhat, but it's not nearly as bad as uncoated tins. I'm not sure spraying Krylon or some other acrylic would be a good idea. It will most likely blister and melt or even burn with the heat from the candle flame. If you can't bear to give up your rusting FOs in tins, try Specialty Bottle. You can order just a couple of tins to try out - you don't have to order case minimums. I've never had any safety issues with the coating Specialty Bottle uses on their tins, even with a super hot CD wick flame.I've also found that if I add enough beeswax to my soy to get it to shrink away from the inside of the tin a bit, so it's not touching, it will also slow down the rusting.HTH!BO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortuna Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hi,My policy is strict because the candles are nearing entry into higher end stores that are more corporate. Just the level before the required UPC labeling on the bottom from larger chains or larger stores.Any rust of any kind is not allowed. I will continue carrying some glass for only a few that are so good.I've found that vanilla from Natures Garden does not rust. It's called french vanilla. Though there oils like the oils from CandlesAndSupplies can commonly suffer from being to weak.Nathan Young Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burned Out Posted February 18, 2008 Share Posted February 18, 2008 Hi Nathan,Yes, you'll definitely be okay with glass. It won't oxidize with those problem FOs.From Nature with Love is very good about specifying whether or not one of their candle oils contains significant vanillin. Though they are a bit pricey, it helps to be able to prescreen FOs. Their candle scents are great quality as well.Good luck with your high-end accounts! That is very exciting. Congratulations!BO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortuna Posted February 18, 2008 Author Share Posted February 18, 2008 My company will turn into a non-profit. I'm also getting into shampoos and lotions. The lower functioning individuals can pump those into retail containers safely. Also micro-farmed catnip.. Candles are doing great though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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