GirlWithTheCurl Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 I'm just wondering if the reported fire was actually wax aflame or just perceived as such? The combination of liquefied wax and a untrimmed flaming wick could cause one to panic in thinking that all was ablaze and blame you instead of realizing it was caused due to their negligence. Whatever, I guess....fire is fire and too hot is just too hot. With tins, long neck stabilizers for sure and wick down to avoid a full melt pool on that first burn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceCarvesWax Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Quote from a web site I found just now: wicks-wax-scents Safety Tips for Wax MeltingNever have the wax in direct contact with the heat source. Wax is like grease, as it has a flash point. In general, wax has a flash point of 395 degrees. A flash point is the point where the wax is so hot that it burst into flames all by itself. So I say "IN GENERAL" the flash point of wax is 300 degrees. I tell everyone - if wax is smoking, it is too hot. The vapors produced are extremely flammable for any heat source like a stove. Use the double boiler. Don't melt it in a microwave. Our wax isn't made for this. I like my wax at 150 degrees for a variety of reasons.Most paraffin waxes have a flash point around 395° F. When it reaches its flash point it may not smoke or bubble, it will usually just explode, splattering flaming wax in all directions. To avoid this catastrophe, always use the double boiling method to melt your wax. Water boils at 212° F, which is well below the flash point of any paraffin wax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 THANKS, Bruce! :highfive:Since I make candles in tins and containers, I have been following this thread with much interest. I found an old overwicked tester tin (6 oz. C3 w/ a CDN 14) that I am gonna try to set on fire... I never finished the test burn because the candle was so obviously overwicked - full MP in 1½ hours! Oh, it throws great, and the fast melt pool would delight many folks but the flame is just plain scary! I chickened out last night, but this morning I feel bolder...HEY!! I could test it out in a big brush pile I need to burn!Why does this sound like the beginnings of a story I will have to sheepishly tell the fire department... :undecided *...stumbles off to locate fire extinguisher...* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugtussle Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share Posted September 19, 2007 Bruce, so wax is probably a bit more dangerous than we thought. It gets heated 300+ and it could catch fire or explode. How do we get that over to our customers without scaring them out of buying our candles?Stella, hate to say "good luck" setting a candle on fire, but let us know. I will fill up my fireplace with likely suspects again today and see what happens.The content of tins that I got back previously had definitely been on fire. The warning label on bottom was scorched black. The fire my daughter had burned the little holder the tin was in, the tablecloth and even scorched the wood table under it. Carole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceCarvesWax Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Bruce, so wax is probably a bit more dangerous than we thought. It gets heated 300+ and it could catch fire or explode. I use to heat wax to over 300F to make sand candles all the time. I think they are saying for safety reasons we should all think of wax as having a Flash point of about 300F. Like the quote said in general the actual flash point on most regular wax is around 396F which I just call it "close to 400F" If you tell some one its 396f and their thermo sucks, they could blow up the house thinking they are below the flash point. Saying 300f gives you a safe bumper zone and I think thats why it say that in the quote. Bruce Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobinInOR Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 The content of tins that I got back previously had definitely been on fire. The warning label on bottom was scorched black. The fire my daughter had burned the little holder the tin was in, the tablecloth and even scorched the wood table under it. CaroleAnd that's where tins can be more dangerous than glass. Glass is more of an insulator - the tin will transfer the heat directly out to the surface it's sitting on, and glass won't do that as fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShelleyBean Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Thank you for the information Bruce. I'll say it again, I'm very glad this thread is here, I think many can learn from it :smiley2: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugtussle Posted September 19, 2007 Author Share Posted September 19, 2007 I've had my Levine warmer on all morning with about 1/2 full 6 Oz tin. It hit 230 degrees a while ago. That is too high. The scent has long evaporated out of it I know we are in the safety zone, but what if it had 1/2" of wax & got even hotter. My AC is on and this has to be cooling it to a degree. Warmers are only supposed to heat to 150-160. I'm afraid this could also be a danger.Robin, you're correct in that glass is a better insulator, but then if glass shattered, it could still cause a fire. Carole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted September 19, 2007 Share Posted September 19, 2007 Took the words right outta my mouse, Carole!My torch tin is still burning on the porch - hasn't caught fire... yet, but have gotten temp readings up to 240°. The whole thing is liquid now, so things oughta start gettin' interesting if they are gonna...*...donning eye protection and Nomex jumpsuit...* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted September 23, 2007 Share Posted September 23, 2007 I have a camera load of photos and temps from the soy wax tin burn I conducted the other day, which are mostly boring to look at so I won't include them here, but the bottom line is that if the tins are overwicked and/or powerburned, and the sustainer base fails to extinguish when it is supposed to, the tins can certainly reach temperatures high enough to flash. I got one reading of 405° before my knuckles burned and the digital said ERR... I think a glass container would crack long before this temp and leak the wax, but the same potential for fire exists with glass containers as it does for tins.Thank you so MUCH for reporting this - I have learned a great deal and I would never have done this testing if you had not told us about your experience, Carole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugtussle Posted September 23, 2007 Author Share Posted September 23, 2007 Stella 1952, thank you for your work in confirming "hot temperatures." I guess whoever coined the words "never leave a candle unattended" had it right. We just have to push safety and reading Warning Labels. This goes for candle warmers as well. Carole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharon in KY Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 I'd go up on the wick tab neck, to a 6 mm. And what if you poured high melt point wax in the very bottom of the tin up to the wick tab neck before pouring your reg wax. Pain, but it would put out the flame... maybe unless you have it wicked way too high. We're all doomed.One time I poured baking soda in the bottom of a jar with wax on top to see if it would put out the flame. I don't think it worked but that was when I first started messing around and I never kept track of anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 I'd go up on the wick tab neck, to a 6 mm. And what if you poured high melt point wax in the very bottom of the tin up to the wick tab neck before pouring your reg wax. Pain, but it would put out the flame... maybe unless you have it wicked way too high. We're all doomed.Thanks for the ideas, Sharon. As far as my "flaming tin" experiment, I was TRYING for a failure just to see if I could get the wax to the flashpoint. I happened to have a partially burned candle from when I was wick testing my 6 oz. tins (a CDN 14 - normally I use 10s). I also had used low-temp glue to affix the wick tab to the bottom of the tin (which I also knew would fail, which is why I don't use hot glue any more - low or high temp - for wicking containers). The neck height doesn't matter if there is a hole in the crimp or the glue breaks the seal on the bottom of the sustainer base and allows the wick to continue sucking up the liquid wax. Just like a slurpee on a hot summer day...Reading here and there, many folks not only are using similar sized wicks in their tins stuck down with hot glue, some folks are using even larger wicks! I was wanting to check this out for my own curiosity but also to demonstrate that if a container candle is allowed to burn after the wax has become totally liquid (as many customers WILL do), a slightly overwicked tin can easily get hot enough to scorch wood or burst into flames. Better to err on the side of underwicking containers! I also learned that it could be a majorly big deal if the glue underneath the sustainer base softens enough to allow the liquid wax to be pulled into the wick from underneath (let alone wander all over the bottom of the container). I am glad I took the time to test why some of the sustainer bases were failing to extinguish the wick. I was concerned enough to pull every container candle out of stock because of this! As I have burned them, I have made sure to powerburn the last third of the candle and at least half of them have sucked wax to the last drop...Pretty cheap lesson, I'd say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugtussle Posted October 20, 2007 Author Share Posted October 20, 2007 Stella, I have never used a glue gun for securing wick tabs. I use the stickums from BCN/S. I wonder if the stickums allow the wax to be sucked up?? Carole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharon in KY Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 I have tried wickem's and high hot glue and when I changed jars the wick would slide. Also it would pull up all the time. I have used silicone calking for years and would never go back. I prefer a cooler burning candle, one that doesn't get the glass hot. That's why I'm retesting wicks. The square mason I use is higher in the middle inside so I use the 3mm neck so it will not leave so much wax, so if it's working it's a good candle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Carole, I tried the stickums and never had a problem, but they were a little expensive to me and awkward, so I went with the hot glue... until I started having too many containers burning all the way to the bitter end and bypassing the wicktab... You were smart, Sharon. I have see the light and changed to using to high-temp RTV - so far, so good - no slurping. I hate the smell of acetic acid, but it's worth it if those wicks will stay put and not slurp and I have wax left in the bottoms! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PurpleHippie Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 I am a bit confused here:confused: There was a post where the discussion concerned how unsafe glass containers can be on warmers because we have no way of knowing how high each individual warmer will heat the glass to and that might cause the glass to explode or crack. So tins were mentioned as a better alternative. Now there is a problem with the tins? Which is it? Is this just a problem when using wicks with tins or on the warmers also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugtussle Posted October 21, 2007 Author Share Posted October 21, 2007 This post was about that fact that wax (any kind) if heated too high can ignite. Wax can be heated to this point by oversized wicks, (especially in the bottom 1/3 in either glass or a tin,) or by a warmer that gets too hot. I tested my Levine warmer & I think it gets too hot.I personally think tins are as safe as glass, but when you light a wick, you have a fire! When you heat wax on a warmer, you are heating an ignitable oil. Just be careful and be aware that wax can catch fire. Carole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 unsafe glass containers can be on warmers because we have no way of knowing how high each individual warmer will heat the glass to and that might cause the glass to explode or crack. So tins were mentioned as a better alternative.Wickless candles and wicked candles are different. The difference is FIRE. Tins ARE a better alternative on warmers, but this thread is about wicked tins. HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PurpleHippie Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Yes, I see that the main discussion is concerning wicks and that fire is involved with a wicked candle. On previous pages of this topic usage of tin on warmers is mentioned so I just wanted to make sure that the general consensus hadn't changed from suggesting that tins were better for use on warmers instead of glass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugtussle Posted October 22, 2007 Author Share Posted October 22, 2007 Thank you, Stella. We did cover a lot in this post. You said it very well. By the way, the lady never came back into the store with the burned tin. Wish I could have seen it. Carole Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Haven't made candles for awhile, but am hoping to start again. However, I always drop in to see what's going on. I recall someone on the old board saying that the reason they used zinc core wicks in container candles was to help to keep the wick from falling over into the wax as the candle was burning and causing the wax to ignite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 The sustainer bases (wick tabs) that many folks use in containers are supposed to resolve the "falling over" issue and also cause the wick to self-extinguish when the wick meets the top of the sustainer base, but it only works if the liquid wax cannot still be pulled into the wick through the bottom or holes in the neck of the sustainer base. Here's a link that discusses how a wick tab works: http://www.wicksunlimited.com/candle_burning_physical_issues.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Posted October 25, 2007 Share Posted October 25, 2007 Haven't made candles for awhile, but am hoping to start again. However, I always drop in to see what's going on. I recall someone on the old board saying that the reason they used zinc core wicks in container candles was to help to keep the wick from falling over into the wax as the candle was burning and causing the wax to ignite.I remember where I saw this information, It is on the PEAK site at the bottom of the zinc core wicks page. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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