ladydragon Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Hi guys...I've been chasing that elusive 'perfect' base recipe for a while now and the one that's proven the most reliable for me in CP and HP so far is as follows:30% Coconut; 20% Palm; 25% Olive Pomace and 25% Rice Bran OilNumbers through soap calc:Hardness = 44Cleansing = 21Condition = 52Bubbly = 21Creamy = 22Iodine = 62INS = 151It's not the hardest bar on the planet - but it does seem to survive in use and has a nice creamy, moisturising lather that the kids can still blow bubbles with...lolThe main reason I'm in a pickle over the base recipe is we require mandatory independent toxicology assessment of our product before we can legally sell it in the UK - and it costs around the equivalent of $300 *BEFORE* including the costs of variable ingredients which work out about $5 - $10 each...Varying the base recipe would require the investment again for a new formulation... :-(So although I'll be able to add extras such as EO, FO, herbs and colourants to the assessment - the base will essentially need to be the same for each and every soap made... Kinda important that I get it as good as possible for ease of use, reliability and diversity in accepting a variety of other ingredients to superfat or add texture, fragrance etc... So any comments (positive or critical), suggested alterations etc of the above recipe would be gratefully received...Now I understand things are a tad different in the US and you're able to use different recipes with the base ingredients changing to suit if you want - but, if you have a particular old favourite that you tend to return to regularly I'd love to hear what it might be and why you stick with it... Oh, before I forget - most oils are available here but I can't use PKO or Babassu... They're not...Thanks for taking a peek...Ann-Marie x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 To my less-than-veteran eye that looks like a nice recipe and quite safe to go with. You sound a tiny bit concerned about the hardness, which you can compensate for with some extra cure time and not overdoing the superfat.However if you would like a recipe tweak you could try working in 5-10% cocoa butter to add a little hardness. I recently got some to play with for exactly this reason. You could swap out some palm and/or maybe 5% of the RBO to make it fit and see how you like the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladydragon Posted August 8, 2007 Author Share Posted August 8, 2007 Thanks for the reply...I have worked with adding shea, cocoa butter etc as the 6% superfatting - which I'd use for ingredient variables or extra options...So infact - the figures I put above are really all minus 1.5% each with the 'extras' making it up to 100% with a 6% superfat... Don't know if I've explained that very well ?!?!?If I sub out anything to add it as part of the base then every single soap there after has to have it in there - the base formulation and methodology all have to be verified and assessed...An alternative though would be to maybe use your suggestion and drop the RBO by the full five or six percent intended superfat and use that left over bit as the ingredient variable rather than averaging it across all the base ingredients... Thinking aloud now - sorry...lolMmmmm... Definitely worth a pop though... So the RBO would drop to 20% and there'd be a spare 5% which could be Calendula, Jojoba, Shea, Cocoa etc...Ann-Marie x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scent Cellar Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I would drop the olive a couple %'s before I would drop down the rice bran oil. I also find that when I get a soap recipe that has iodine in the range of the low 70's it is close to the ideal bar for my use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLSoaps Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 I would drop the olive a couple %'s before I would drop down the rice bran oil. I would have said the opposite, keep the olive, and lower the RBO, since hardness is an issue. The OO will take a little longer to cure into a harder bar, but it WILL be a harder bar. I've got a 100% OO soap and once it's fully cured, it's the hardest bar I make. RBO just doesn't get the hardness that OO will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Mmmmm... Definitely worth a pop though... So the RBO would drop to 20% and there'd be a spare 5% which could be Calendula, Jojoba, Shea, Cocoa etc...I was thinking in terms of hardness, for which you might want to focus in on cocoa butter. You don't even have to swap out olive or rbo. The cocoa butter is harder than most hard oils except for stuff like coconut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladydragon Posted August 8, 2007 Author Share Posted August 8, 2007 Sorry if I appear dim TOMH but do you mean to build cocoa butter into the base recipe as a permanent fixture so to speak to harden up the overall recipe?Scent Cellar & Soapers Workshop - thanks for your input also...I've not quite gotten my head around the Iodine and INS figures SC... Any reason why you find the higher Iiodine number preferable and any hints on how to achieve that or particular oils which might be helpful?Any thoughts on fors or againsts regarding RBO versus OO? I suppose I could use straight OO - research on RBO led me to believe they had similar properties but that the RBO might actually be ahead slightly in terms of being nice and gentle to the skin so to speak... It's still fairly new over here - I've not really seen it on any labels as such - but I got it in originally for our baby butter as it's a nut / kernel free oil... There's very little difference in price between the two...Ann-Marie x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scent Cellar Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I have eliminated olive oil from my recipes and switched to rice bran oil and am extremely pleased with my bars. I also include PKO & babassu in my base recipe. Maybe it isn't everyone's choice but it is working well for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Yes I was throwing out the possibility of making cocoa butter part of the base recipe. You can think of it if you like as a sub for palm oil but harder. For instance...Coconut 30%Palm 10%Cocoa Butter 10%Olive Pomace 25%RBO 25%Hardness 45Cleansing 20Condition 51Bubbly 20Creamy 25Iodine 61INS 152I wouldn't worry about that iodine issue. Over 70 would be a way different recipe and yours is fine. The SoapCalc site says that higher iodine implies a softer and more conditioning bar. You would get a higher number by using more soft oils. Particularly oils with a high iodine number, but those seem to generally have a shorter shelf life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DONNAMAC Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Just curious, is Olive pomice the same as olive oil? I fnot, what is the difference.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eugenia Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 Just curious, is Olive pomice the same as olive oil? I fnot, what is the difference.?Pomace is an olive residue oil. An olive residue oil, by definition, is obtained by treating the olive residue, called pomace, (which is the substance remaining from previous pressings) with solvents. It may be classified as "refined olive-residue oil" or "refined olive-residue oil and olive oil".It soaps fine for me.e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladydragon Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 Scent Cellar - so many recipes I've tripped over seem to use PKO that I can only presume it's rather useful... A bit of a shame it's not exactly abundant over here!TOMH - thank you... Have a guess what I'll be doing tomorrow evening?! ;-)The only downside I can think of with that is the cost of the CB versus the Palm - rough figures here but the CB is a tad over £4 or $8 more per kilo (2.2lb) than the palm... But if it's worth it then it's worth it - simple as...OTOH, has anyone found customers who don't approve of cocoa butter in their soaps? We have to use unrefined CB...I know I'm probably sounding horribly picky - but once I submit the formula I'm going to be stuck with it for a loooooooong time...lol I do envy your freedom to be able to play around so much more with different base recipes and still be able to bring them to market so long as they are chemically safe and you are professionally happy with them...As I understand it Donnamac - the Olive Pomace is less refined than the usual Olive Oil... I could be completely wrong here though... The extra bonus is that Olive Pomace here is substantially cheaper than refined Olive Oil... ;-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladydragon Posted August 9, 2007 Author Share Posted August 9, 2007 Eugenia... Hmmm... If that's the case then it'll be over to OO for me rather than OP...I had a huge batch from a supplier who told me it was obtained with minimal fiddle factor and was definitely solvent free... :-( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 The cost could certainly be a consideration. If you like it you could consider half the amount. But if you're limited to the less refined cocoa butter then you'll also be evaluating how it affects the color and fragrance of your soap. I'm starting off playing with some of the ultra-refined stuff so that doesn't have to be an issue for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetiepie Posted August 9, 2007 Share Posted August 9, 2007 I'd up the palm if it were me. Maybe something like,35% Palm25% Coconut20% Olive20% RBOThis is a good, solid base. It's actually really close on soapcalc to the recipe that Top posted, but without the expense of cocoa butter. hardness 45cleansing 17condition 51bubbly 17creamy 28Iodine 60INS 150HTH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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