Need some info on IPM in CP soap

[CBE]

I've seen Myristic Acid on the soap calc I use. I'm assuming this is the same thing as Isopropyl Myristate. I read that IPM is derived from the vegetable fatty acids of coconut oil. So... would this give me more bubbles? I read somewhere that IPM can be used up to 12% in a recipe. Has anyone ever soaped with IPM? When do I add it? To my lye water? At trace?

[topofmurrayhill]

I've seen Myristic Acid on the soap calc I use. I'm assuming this is the same thing as Isopropyl Myristate.

Myristic acid is a fatty acid found in various oils and isopropyl myristate is made from it, but they're not at all the same thing.

I have no idea if it's useful in soap or what it would do. Maybe someone else knows.

[GrandmaArial]

I don’t think it’s the same thing… I believe Isopropyl Myristate is the ester of isopropyl alcohol and myristic acid. Of course chem. 101 was almost 40 years ago so I’m probably wrong…

[CBE]

This is what I found about IPM.... it says it can be used in soaps... and it also has a SAP value.

Isopropyl Myristate (IPM)

SKU IPM

INCI: Isopropyl Myristate

IPM is the ester of isopropyl alcohol and myristic acid. It is derived from the vegetable fatty acids of coconut oil and used as a moisturizer, emollient and lubricant. It is often used to reduce the greasy feeling in lotions and creams as well as a thickener. IPM easily penetrates the skin and allows lotions to feel creamer.

Is used primarily used in high-end cosmetics and is a very versatile emollient ester of low viscosity that has been around for a long time.

When added it to formulations, it improves the oils spreading co-efficient (thins them out, if you will) making the oils in the formula feel as though they are sinking more readily into the skin.

It helps to cut the greasy or oily feel of most oils very effectively, making IPM a very nice addition to massage oils, lotion bars and other anhydrous products (even lip balms).

In lotions and creams, it adds "cushion" and promotes a velvety feel. IPM spreads very easily and promotes a dry feeling thus it is considered a dry effect emollient to the skin.

Usage in fomulations is up to 10%.

Suggested % for formulations:

Lotions: 1 to 3%

Creams: 3 to 6%

Butters & Lotion Bars: 4-10%

Massage Oils: 4-8%

Lip Balm:1-5%

Soap: 5-12%

Used as an emollient and lubricant in preshaves, sftershaves, shampoos, bathoils antiperspirants, deodorants and creams and lotions. SAP Value: 208 mg KOH/g of Fat

[topofmurrayhill]

Maybe you can be the mad scientist and experiment with it. If it has a SAP value, that implies to me that the lye would essentially destroy most of it, so it wouldn't impart the qualities that make it desirable in lotions and creams and such. That's not to say it isn't worth a try to see what happens. Another possibility might be to try adding some to M&P.

[CBE]

Maybe you can be the mad scientist and experiment with it. If it has a SAP value, that implies to me that the lye would essentially destroy most of it, so it wouldn't impart the qualities that make it desirable in lotions and creams and such. That's not to say it isn't worth a try to see what happens. Another possibility might be to try adding some to M&P.

I probably will be the mad scientist and experiment.... I just wanted to make sure I don't blow up or anything. LOL So... if something has a SAP value, does that mean it's soapable??? OK... I know you're laughing at me now. LOL I'm still learning as I go... I'm still a newbie when it comes to CP.

I didn't think I would get the properties of IPM in a soap bar, but I'm very curious about it giving more bubbles. Just a thought.

[GrandmaArial]

I probably will be the mad scientist and experiment.... I just wanted to make sure I don't blow up or anything. LOL So... if something has a SAP value, does that mean it's soapable??? OK... I know you're laughing at me now. LOL I'm still learning as I go... I'm still a newbie when it comes to CP.

I didn't think I would get the properties of IPM in a soap bar, but I'm very curious about it giving more bubbles. Just a thought.

I think that if you add it at trace (to superfat with) you'ld probabaly keep at least some of the properties of the IPM, but it would seem logical that if you add it to your oils and it saponificats then you should get the sodium myristate that is responsable for bubbles. Try it. Let us know. Nothing ventured nothing gained! PLEASE DO IT SO I DON'T HAVE TO!

[topofmurrayhill]

LOL So... if something has a SAP value, does that mean it's soapable???

Having a SAP value doesn't really tell you if it's good or bad to use in soap, but it does indicate that the substance can be saponified, so it will have a chemical reaction with the lye and no longer be isopropyl myristate. A little would probably be left due to the superfat allowance in your recipe.

What will it turn into? I'm not sure, but I think it might end up as soap plus isopropyl alcohol.

Based on some quick research it seems this substance is useful in B&B in and of itself, so you maybe don't really want to react it with lye. That's why I was thinking it might be useful in M&P as an emollient, except the soap base already has a lot of glycerine in it.

[CareBear]

GA - Oils added at trace react with the lye the same way that oils added at the beginning do. The vast majority of the reaction happens in the mold (or pot if you are cooking) - an almost negligible amount happens up to trace. So adding an oil at trace is no more likely to preserve the properties of an oil than adding it at the beginning.

If you want to maintain the integrity (properties) of an oil, do HP and add it after the cook.

IMO, IME, FMR (from my research) there is no reason to add an oil at trace unless you want to set yourself up for accidentally leaving it out.

[Meridith]

When adding any oil or butter at trace, you can not control what the lye attaches itself to and turns to soap. Like CB said, you can do HP and add it after the cook or you can take a lye discount - instead of supefatting at 5%, superfat at 6%.

[GrandmaArial]

CareBear, yes, the bulk of saponification occurs in the mold but the process is started as soon as the lye meets the oils as demonstrated by the mixing pot heating as it approaches trace. If only 30% of the mix is saponified before you add your emollient oils that increases the percentage of emollient oils to base by 1.5% if you start with a 5% range (to a total of 6.5%). Also the first thing that happens chemically when you add the lye is the break down of the fat molecules, which means the glycol chain is released leaving free fatty acids and glycerin. The free fatty acids will “grab” the sodium hydroxide molecules faster than fats that have not yet been released, further increasing the concentration of your chosen oils. No, your free oils at the end wont be 100% of what you add at the end but will be considerably more concentrated than the original calculation, there by being more likely to preserve the characteristics of the last oils added, by my calculations (no, I’m not a chemist) up to 70% (making it a total of 8.5%) of the total free oils if you wait til late medium trace. When you’re talking about small amounts used it may not seem like much but I’ll take it when shea butter costs $8.50/lb plus shipping.

I have read various articles and books that advocate both sides of this, but no where have I been able to find anyone who did a chemical analysis comparing both ways. Until someone does I guess it will be one of those things people debate.

Yes, I agree that waiting til the last minute increases the chances of forgetting to add it, but for me that would be just a lesson learned. It would be ruined, a waste of time and supplies. Nothing like throwing money down the drain to catch your attention! It will, ultimately be a personal choice.

[CareBear]

Actually there is some research out there. I'll take some time when I can and see if I can find it. My product development days are far behind me but some things from college and on-the-job training stick. But if memory serves it's no where near 30% saponified at trace. Could be wrong tho. It's happened.

ETA: Cannot find my technical journals right now but did find some notes - it's estimated that approximately 10% of saponification has occurred at medium trace, and that most of the thickening is the result of emulsification of oils and water helped along by the soap that has formed. But I don't have the references to quote. (it's also been posted in another forum by an expert soapmaker which adds validity to my notes as she is going on personal experience as well as technical expertise).

[CBE]

All I wanted was BUBBLES. rotf lmao... I guess I won't try it... I just don't want a bad chemical reaction with the lye... (that's my fear.... that's what happens when a paranoid person makes CP soap ) I'm always thinking of the "what if's".

[CareBear]

no no - DO try it. Nothing BAD will happen!!! You probably won't get the neat feel of the IPM but you may end up with something neat anyway!

No danger lurking there that I can come up with.

[GrandmaArial]

Actually there is some research out there. I'll take some time when I can and see if I can find it. My product development days are far behind me but some things from college and on-the-job training stick. But if memory serves it's no where near 30% saponified at trace. Could be wrong tho. It's happened.

ETA: Cannot find my technical journals right now but did find some notes - it's estimated that approximately 10% of saponification has occurred at medium trace, and that most of the thickening is the result of emulsification of oils and water helped along by the soap that has formed. But I don't have the references to quote. (it's also been posted in another forum by an expert soapmaker which adds validity to my notes as she is going on personal experience as well as technical expertise).

Well, I could be wrong, been a LONG time since chem class. But even 10% I'll take if it helps keep even a little extra of my precious shea at the surface!

[GrandmaArial]

All I wanted was BUBBLES. rotf lmao... I guess I won't try it... I just don't want a bad chemical reaction with the lye... (that's my fear.... that's what happens when a paranoid person makes CP soap ) I'm always thinking of the "what if's".

DO IT! I made the stinky butter soap, you try this one. What's the worse that can happen except you have to toss it out. And it might be wonderful! And if it is YOU are the one who gets bragging rights!

[CBE]

Ok ok ok... I'll try it! IPM IS kinda watery... you think if I pour at trace it will affect the soap? Or should I substitute it with some of my water before adding the lye? Hmm.... which would you guys think would be better???? If you can use up to 12%... I think that's ALOT.... Maybe half? 6%? Or should I go for the gusto and do the whole 12%?

[CareBear]

Well, it's not water, so I wouldn't reduce water for it - liquid coconut oil is really watery too. Though I tend to use at least a 33% lye solution for any soap.

As for how much, well - kinda depends on your objective. If you really want to see what it does then go for the gusto but you might need to toss your soap. If you want to reduce the risk use the lower amount (I would).

Add it whenever you wish - it makes no never-mind.

(I would recommend including it in your lye calculations so you don't end up with oily soap - and maybe SF to 6% or so - but that's my personal reco, others may suggest differently).

[GrandmaArial]

I wouldn't add this to the water before adding the lye, but to your oils. I think it's probabaly safer to always add the diluted lye to oil. It is derived from oil... woundn't want you to get a volcano or anything. I agree with CareBear, If it were me I would treat it as an oil.

Now hurry up and report back.

[CBE]

k... I will do what the wise ones say:meditate: my next batch, I will try it. Probably won't be able to soap till Monday it's been a busy week so far, and it will only get busier for me. But I will make sure I will post my results of my mad scientist experiment...LOL I will try the IPM at.... let's say..... 5%.

[CareBear]

MONDAY!?! We gotta wait till MONDAY?!?

[GrandmaArial]

MONDAY??????????????????????????? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will have grand daughers here! They are selfish with grandma's attention, won't let me near the computer (unless I'm playing a game with them)... I won't know til after they leave!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok, ok, be that way... I'll have to sneak in here in the middle of te night when they're alseep...

[CBE]

MONDAY!?! We gotta wait till MONDAY?!?

ROTF LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:laugh2:

Ok... you guys made me laugh really hard so early this morning! That laugh will get me through my day at work. LOL And believe me, I REALLY needed it. LOL Thanks.:highfive:

IF I'm able... I'll try this weekend. Maybe Fri. depending on how everything goes. I'll let you guys know!!!!

[CBE]

I haven't had a chance to try it yet in CP... but I did try in M&P the other night. I find it kinda cuts down on the lather. Did not feel any difference. Still dried me out. (M&P always did dry me out tremendously, even if I added oils to it)

So I don't know if it would be a great idea to add it to CP.

[CareBear]

I don't find IPM moisturizing. It's weird - like a DRY oil. Same with cyclo. Actually I like it in butters and lotions because it adds lubricity without oiliness.