Soy wax emulsifyers? Do you use them?

[Ilona]

I was making a small batch of test candles today with some of my new FO and 100% soy wax. I just bought new oil based liquid dye to test out as well, but when I put it in the melted wax it would not mix. So I added an emulsifyer and that helped the color mix.

On the next batch I tried just water based food colors into the wax to see what happened. They mixed right away with no problems.

So what I am thinking is that maybe some of the issues with mixing the FO have to do with the water based soy and the oil based FO not adequately mixing.

What is your opinion on this?

Maybe using an emulsifyer will stop the oil seeping problems on highter % of FO?

BTW I used Conditioning Emulsifyer from MMU because that is all I had on hand. I use it with lotion making and that is where I got the idea to test it in soy.

If anyone wants, I can do a side by side test batch one with emulsifyer and one without for comparison. Let me know.

[topofmurrayhill]

It's surprising that a liquid colorant wouldn't mix if it was oil/solvent dye. Soy wax is hydrogenated vegetable oil (vegetable shortening). You shouldn't use anything water based in it for candles.

Actually, emulsifier is frequently used with soy wax. We typically use various monoglyceride emulsifier/surfactants that people have collectively been calling Universal Soy Additive. They're used as crystal modifiers, mainly to help inhibit frosting and related defects. I suppose the B&B emulsifiers may be very different; I don't know anything about them.

I think the USA does help hold scent but I'm not positive.

[Candle Man]

I was making a small batch of test candles today with some of my new FO and 100% soy wax. I just bought new oil based liquid dye to test out as well, but when I put it in the melted wax it would not mix. So I added an emulsifyer and that helped the color mix.

On the next batch I tried just water based food colors into the wax to see what happened. They mixed right away with no problems.

So what I am thinking is that maybe some of the issues with mixing the FO have to do with the water based soy and the oil based FO not adequately mixing.

What is your opinion on this?

Maybe using an emulsifyer will stop the oil seeping problems on highter % of FO?

BTW I used Conditioning Emulsifyer from MMU because that is all I had on hand. I use it with lotion making and that is where I got the idea to test it in soy.

If anyone wants, I can do a side by side test batch one with emulsifyer and one without for comparison. Let me know.

I don't know how you got a water base food color to mix in an oil base wax. I have no problems with oil base candle dys mixing in soy wax. Maybe your temp on the wax was not high enough to mix the color into the wax.

[Ilona]

It was odd. I used 100% ecosoya and it took the water based food colorings so perfectly. They did not seperate, nothing. I was shocked too. I had the thermometer on it the whole time and I mixed at 175.

I don't know why the oil did not mix. Even using the immersion blender the oil color seperated from the melted soy wax.

Maybe it is something with the ecosoya. It is very water soluable.

I will do more tests tomorrow as I see on the boards that others are having seperation problems and i believe it may be the water solubility of this wax. I will get pix up.

I mean how can it be that water based grocery store food coloring dissolved PERFECTLY in this wax?

Also the emulsified batch I did had no frosting.

*scratches head*

hmm

[Vicky_CO]

All soy waxes are water soluble. It doesn't surprise me that you where able to get the food dyes to mix. But they where not made for candles so you will run in to burn problems. You having a theory but you have not finished testing your theory no matter how good something looks the burn is what matters. If you have just added water to you candle you will run in to a problem because it will separate over time.

You have also not taken in to account some of the chemicals used to create FO when mixed with water become highly flammable. Have you ever wondered why you don't use water to put out an oil or chemical fire.

Soy wax is not water based, water soluble and water based are 2 very differant things.

[Vicky_CO]

I am also going to add this soy is only water soluble when you add a detergent of some kind that is why they say it cleans up with soap and hot water. Soap being the operative word here.

[Ilona]

But they where not made for candles so you will run in to burn problems.

This wax is specifically made for candles. EcoSoya CB Pure Soy Candle Wax.

http://www.ngiwax.com/ProductInformation/CB-PureSoy.php

In addition I did not add any water, gosh no! I added 2 drops of water based food coloring to 1lb of wax. I did not say to add water to the wax. I am only investigating certain issues users on the boards have mentioned, two big ones being frosting and seperation with the oil.

I did not add any detergent. I actually did some research and the Soy Additive that people have been having success with is in fact an emulsifyer.

When I discovered the ingredients to the USA it was the same chemical I used as an emulsifyer.

I also called EcoSoya's technical support about this and they confirmed that the product's ability to accept 6% FO is due to the hydrogenation (sp?) process which enables the product to have water soluable charactaristics - thus biodegradeable. The tech said that as long as the ballance and ratios are accurate to the product specifications, there should be no seperation, and little or no frosting. How accurate these claims are I personally can't confirm yet.

A quote from the ecosoya website:

Depending on the blend we then add the finest botanical oils available to give EcoSoya™ waxes their unparalleled characteristics and performances. These ingredients are processed under close supervision with careful regard for secrecy. Only a select few people know the actual ingredients and how our wax is made after it is hydrogenated.

Vicky:

I completely agree with you on the safety issues, especially with water and FO. I'm new to the boards but have been making candles since I was 18.

The reason I began this thread is that I love soy wax, and if there are new things we can dig up and learn to make our throws better, or burns better, or anything better, than I believe it is worth looking into. When I did an ecosoya search and read some of the issues users were facing, I wanted to help understand the chemestry behind why.

I was completely shocked when my colorant would not mix (I'm wondering if it is a oil based pigment). The ecosoya site gives specific ways to mix in color and states pigments will not dissolve in melted wax. They say to try and dissolve them in the FO first and then mix with wax? sounds fishy so i'll just skip it all together and use powder that is safe and proven.. The site is a valuable resource for those having issues with this brand.

Tomorrow I plan on making some test candles with the ecosoya % recs and done by the book via their recipe. Then I plan to do a test of 9% FO with SoyAdditive (emulsifyer). Then finally maybe adding 3-5% StearicAcid to see how it helps/hinders.

What I would like to find out is IF the soy additive allows a higher % of FO to be incorporated into the mix. And would that improve the throw. I think it is an important issue for us as many have complained that soy weakens the scent strength.

OK I have rambled, and I need sleep. But I am so fascinated by this.

I hope I am not being a jerk or anything about this topic and being new to the boards. I don't want to come across that way at all. So forgive me if in any way I offend. I don't own a business so my sole intention for obsessing over this is my passion for candlemaking and B&B.

I am totally new to soap tho! never made it in my life and would love to try. But that is another day.

Goodnight

[topofmurrayhill]

I am also going to add this soy is only water soluble when you add a detergent of some kind that is why they say it cleans up with soap and hot water. Soap being the operative word here.

That's a good thing to add. You could say the same about cooking oil. Soy wax isn't water soluble at all. It's just possible to emulsify it (the way fat is suspended in milk).

[Vicky_CO]

Girl you where not listening or not doing your research because food coloring you get out of the grocery store has water in it so yes you added water to your wax. That is what I don't want to see encouraged as candle have enough safety factors going on with out introduce a new one.

I never said you added detergent I was saying that soy is only cleaned up with a detergent you can not clean soy up with just water so it is really not water soluble.

You are right Top it is not water soluble but the thing is you can clean it up with house hold dish washing liquid where the oils to make paraffin you can't, you need something a lot stronger to break it down. That is why most say it water soluble.

[Ilona]

Vicky,

Thanks. I am taking your warning about any amounts of water seriously.

It is my first time working with soy and I am surprised by how different it is.

I would rather have someone warn me than burn down my home in testing something I am not yet 100% experienced with. Thank you for watching my back.