Totally confused about fo load of wax

[krateliff]

Please help! I have read, searched, and studied and thought that I understood, but I am totally confused.

I thought that wax was like a sponge and could only hold so much fo and that if you exceeded this amount that the candle would either sweat out the extra oil or mottle (actually I thought that the sweating is what caused the mottle). I've been experimenting with IGI 1343 and I thought that the this wax could only hold 3% fo.

I expected that if I put in too much fo that either the candle would have a mottled appearance, I would find extra fo in the bottom of the votive cup, or the candle would sweat and I would find little beads of fo on the candle.

I mixed 4 different batches to test so that I could see the difference between the different additives. I may just be in need of a math lesson so I'll give all of my measurements.

To start I colored several pounds of the 1343 pink so that all candles would have the same color. All candles were supposed to be 10% fo so all measurements add up to 100 grams.

Batch 1: 90 grams 1343 and 10 grams fo. (90% wax, 10% fo)

Batch 2: 80 grams 1343, 10 grams fo, 10 grams steric acid (80% wax, 10% fo, 10% SA)

Batch 3: 88 grams 1343, 10 grams fo, 2 grams vybar (88% wax, 10% fo, 2% vybar)

Batch 4: 88 grams 1343, 10 grams fo, 2 grams universal additive. (88% wax, 10% fo, 2% UA)

Each batch was poured at 170 degrees.

I poured each batch into a votive cup and used an LX10 wick in each one. I can see differences in the appearance of each candle (mainly the appearance of the top), but none of these sweated or leaked fo. The one with stearic acid looked blotchy but did not feel slimy and I really didn't like the blotchy look. This one did not look like the pics of mottled candles in the gallery if just looked blotchy (and unfortunatly I didn't take a pic).

I was sure that when I started probally all of these candles would sweat. I thought for sure the first one would but none of them did. In frustration I mixed up another batch with 20 grams of mineral oil and 80 grams of wax (20% oil, 80% wax). I did not wick this one but I put it in the oven to cool slowly sure that it would mottle or at least leak the oil, but it didn't. It came out totally smooth and not oily feeling at all. No oil in the bottom of my cup. No sweating.

I expected something to happen so that I would know I had exceeded the fo load of the wax. I thought the purpose of these additives was to increase the fo load of the wax so I really expected some to leak more fo than others. But since none leaked at all I am totally confused. So my question is, exactly what happens if you put too much fo?

Sorry for the long post but I was hoping with enough details someone would be able to point out where I went wrong. Thanks for any help you can give.

[Scented]

Yep, the addition of additives to 1343 is going to increase the FO retention level.

Batch 1 should have mottled like crazy being only wax and 10% FO.

Batch 2 ... what the heck is the equivalent to 10% steric acid? I use this wax. I use steric. I add it anywhere between 1-3T a pound of wax. Too much of a good thing (any additive) will cause changes ... in other words wipe out mottling, affect mottling patterns and even lock up the scent on occasion (if using vybar).

Batch 3 and 4 ... hope you weren't expecting them to mottle, because both additives kill mottling.

As for the batch you added mineral oil too, did you also add FO to that batch? It's really not necessary to add both. Mineral oil is a great sub for when there is no FO.

I also thinkk you should increase your pouring temperature. Try pouring your tests again at 180 and see what happens. Despite the FO, mottles also need a little bit of heat, just like the FO needs a little bit of heat to start incorporating.

All are JMO, but have worked for me.

[krateliff]

Thanks for replying Scented.

As for the mineral oil batch, no I did not add any fo. Just 20 grams mineral oil and 80 grams wax, nothing else. I was using the mineral oil in place of the fo because I was tired of wasting fo and just trying to see what happens when you use too much oil. But it did not mottle and I'm sure that 20% oil should be way too much. It was just a mad science experiment.

Yep, I expected batch 1 to mottle, but it didn't. That's why I tried the mineral oil experiment which didn't mottle either.

I will try higher temps today. I was afraid of too high of a temp because I don't want to cook off the fo, and when I tried the 4794 I had problems with pits.

[Scented]

You aren't going to cook off the FO unless you're having a camp out over that pot

Pit problems are a different issue, but just make sure your molds are clean and that you pour not too slow and not too fast ... not too hot and not too cold ... how's that for precision lol! You shouldn't get into trouble pouring at 180, even 185 and probably at 190 too. It's different for everyone.

See I can't picture grams ... minute things from soaping (as I measure in grams) and well 10 grams really doesn't seem like much to me. So how about trying ... 1 oz to 1.25 oz of FO with steric and seeing what you get too. I just don't think 10 g of FO is enough and I'm not going to go measure to find out lol. I'm just going to encourage you to switch your measuring system from grams to ounces

[krateliff]

Ok. I will try hotter temps today and I'll use ounces.

If I convert the formula with steric that I used in the previous experiment to ounces and adjust to make a larger batch the proportion would be:

12.8 ounces wax

1.6 ounces fo

1.6 ounces steric acid

I can't measure this on my scale so I can try

13 oz wax

1.5 oz fo

1.5 oz steric acid

which would be roughly 9% steric, 9% fo, and 81% wax.

If this formula isn't right please let me know. This should make 16 oz of wax and I can make 8 votives so I can pour each one at a differnt temp. I can try 175, 180, 185, and 190.

[Scented]

That 1.5 oz steric acid is a little over 3 T (which 3 heaping Ts measured 1.4 oz on my scale) ... so for less than a pound of wax, I think that's in the ball park for a mottle, but I would be inclined to lower the SA to 2 T, which measured .9 oz on my scale ... heaping Ts at that.

If you want to accommodate, use more wax.

[topofmurrayhill]

5% versus 10% liquid in the wax (no stearic) might be an interesting comparison to try.

Sometimes when you exceed certain proportions, you'll have a mixture that starts behaving in a new way. Maybe you found the answer to the question that once came up about how to make quick-liquefying unscented votives. Surprising though if those 10% mineral oil candles aren't greasy.

As Scented pointed out, your stearic addition rate is high for mottling. 20% stearic would be about equivalent to your other additive additions, so you are half way there, kind of betwixt and between. Mottles are normally made with less than 5%, which is really a pretty subtle modification of the straight wax.

Two thoughts on not working harder than you have to. I wouldn't hassle so much over the temperature - pouring at 180 or 185 depending on the temperature of the room should serve your purposes I would think. Also when you make 100 gram samples you barely have to do any math to figure out the percentages, so why complicate your life by switching to ounces?

[krateliff]

Thanks for the thoughts Top. Yes, I chose 100 grams because it made the math easy and it was just enough to make 1 votive and have just a little bit of wax left over. I've poured the experiment that Scented suggested and poured at all kinds of temps just to see what happens. I poured at 200, 195, 190, 185, and 180. I also just for kicks and giggles mixed up one with 1 oz fo and 2 oz wax and another with 1 oz mineral oil and 1 oz wax just to see what on earth happens. I guess that I'm weird like that.

I think though after watching the first 4 candles burn I may have an answer. I had just assumed that if wax is like a sponge that if you exceeded the amount of fo it can hold the rest would just seep or leak out of the candle. But now I don't really think so. I think that this could happen with some waxes but maybe it just depends on the oil content of the wax to begin with? It does however affect the burn quality since all four are burning differently. The candle with vybar needs a bigger wick I think. The flame on it is only about 1/4" tall. The flame on the candle without additives is huge so deffinatly needs a smaller wick. But it's not the answer to the totally liquid votive (at least not with the LX10 wick).

On another note, I remember reading on here somewhere that there are two different kinds of 1343. 1343A and 1343N? One mottled and one didn't. I don't know which one I have. I bought it from Bitter Creek South so it's possible that this wax just won't mottle no matter how much fo or at what temp.

[topofmurrayhill]

I've seen interesting things happen when you go to extremes. Disrupt the crystal structure enough and the wax will act very differently. I wouldn't have guessed that would happen with 10% oil but who knows. Maybe I'll try to replicate your 90/10 results.

You might want to try 5% oil to see if the "extremes" explanation applies. 3 to 5% is normally plenty to get a mottle and some surface oil unless you have an odd batch of 1343. That underscores how far out of bounds you are.

I don't think any candle supply places sell 1343N. Presumably it would still sweat with high oil loads.

[subtle_flame]

On another note, I remember reading on here somewhere that there are two different kinds of 1343. 1343A and 1343N?

I remember seeing that on here too...I think someone stated 1343 and 1343A were the same however, 1343N was nonmottling. Sorry to bump the thread like that. Just a newbie taking notes and testing and sitting back learning.

:tiptoe: *rolling my lil inexperienced rump back over to the corner"

[krateliff]

I remember seeing that on here too...I think someone stated 1343 and 1343A were the same however, 1343N was nonmottling. Sorry to bump the thread like that. Just a newbie taking notes and testing and sitting back learning.

:tiptoe: *rolling my lil inexperienced rump back over to the corner"

I'm just a newbie too that has no idea what I'm doing. That's why I'm doing so many crazy experiments in the first place!

[topofmurrayhill]

I'm just a newbie too that has no idea what I'm doing. That's why I'm doing so many crazy experiments in the first place!

That's how you achieve wax geekdom.

I have a 90/10 votive cooling.

[krateliff]

I've seen interesting things happen when you go to extremes. Disrupt the crystal structure enough and the wax will act very differently. I wouldn't have guessed that would happen with 10% oil but who knows. Maybe I'll try to replicate your 90/10 results.

You might want to try 5% oil to see if the "extremes" explanation applies. 3 to 5% is normally plenty to get a mottle and some surface oil unless you have an odd batch of 1343. That underscores how far out of bounds you are.

I don't think any candle supply places sell 1343N. Presumably it would still sweat with high oil loads.

I don't have much more time today since duty calls. I have to do all of those housewife things. :rolleyes2

I will pour a couple of more votives using lower percentages of oil. I'll try with 2, 3, 4, and 5% tommorow. Maybe try some with steric acid and some without. That should keep me busy for tommorow. You may be right, I probally am just too far in the extremes.

[krateliff]

That's how you achieve wax geekdom.

I have a 90/10 votive cooling.

Yes I'm afraid that I'm a geek. I think it must be all of that computer science and biomedical engineering from school. I haven't had this much fun in years, and I have so many chemicals to play with. My poor family may never get a home cooked meal again.

[eugenia]

It sure sounds like you got the 1343N. They are made the same way, but when a batch does not mottle at all during testing, it's labeled N for no mottle. The 1343/1343A should have danced like crazy for you.

Note that IGI claims the 1343/1343A MAY mottle. It is not marketed as a mottling wax. I have gotten the 1343 from BCN and mottled with great success. BCS is a totally different division. They probably don't even realize that they have the 1343N or that there is a difference.

This is a common supplier problem. I've had to call and get them to check the box to make sure before committing to the order.

e

[topofmurrayhill]

Made a votive with 1343 and 10% mineral oil, poured at 185. The top is mottled and very glossy, no oil. Mottling on the sides is only subtle. When it came out of the mold there was only a small amount of oil on the sides, but over the hours it has become very slick. The oil is slowly oozing down and growing a blue ring on a piece of paper.

Mineral oil is exceptionally compatible with wax so I figure many FOs would produce a messier result at 10%.

As eugenia suggested, your 1343 might be different but hard to imagine it's not sweating at all.

[krateliff]

Top,

What you are describing is about what I expected to happen and how I thought the wax would behave. So now I'm wondering if maybe I got the wrong wax. I ordered 1343, my invoice says 1343, the package says 1343, but maybe it's not 1343. I just got 10 pounds so maybe they grabbed the wrong one when bagging my order. Now I'll have to try to figure out what I have. I'm wondering if it's a blend instead of just plain parrafin and maybe that's why it's not leaking or sweating?

Could you post a pic of yours?

Thank you,

Kristy

[topofmurrayhill]

Here's what I got. Not so mottled but otherwise the predictable result.

[krateliff]

Thanks everyone for your help. I was getting so frustrated. I never did get a mottle out of this wax. At tremendously high percentages of oil (I mean really really high) it did sweat a little bit but not as much as Top's picture.

I have come to the conclusion that it is not 1343. I researched on BCS website and IGI's website and decided that this wax must be 4625. I'm not sure, but pretty sure since I determined that the meltpoint was in the 140 range. I know it's not 1313 since I have some and they don't look alike at all. I know it's not 4614 because it was not a one pour and I have 4614. And since it must not be 1343, that only leaves 4625 left.

Thank you Top and Scented for all of your help. I'm going to throw this wax back in the bottom of the closet and order a fresh batch of 1343 so that I can try again.

[topofmurrayhill]

Sounds like a reasonable conclusion. A slab of 4625 should be a lot harder and more opaque than a slab of 1343. Generally there's no mistaking a slab of straight paraffin for a preblend. You can still make some nice candles out of the 4625 when the mood strikes.

[Scented]

Heck use it up and make some other kinds of candles with it Shame it never did mottle for ya! But at that 3 T of steric, you should be able to get some rustic looks from it with a cold pour.