getting closer...

[latch]

to taking the plunge...

lets see if i am thinking right..

i found this recipe for a small batch..

5 oz coconut oil

13 oz olive oil

6 oz palm oil

9 oz water

3.3 oz lye

could i use 6 oz of cocoa butter instead of palm? also i hve a scale that measures in oz but with fractions,, ex. instead of 3.5 its shows 3 1/2 on the scale, what would 3.3 be... 31/4?? one more question.. could i do the cphp method with this?

[Carrie]

First of all. You need a scale that is accurate down to .1oz. Does yours say 1/16th oz? If it doesn't go down that far, I wouldn't measure lye with it. sorry

Second. Even if you have a good, accurate scale, it isn't a good idea to make less than a 2lb batch. Some experienced soapers make smaller batches but I'm sure they use a scale that weighs in grams instead of ounces.

HTH

[eugenia]

That recipe computes to 21% coconut, 25% palm and 54% olive oil. I would not want to sub cocoa butter for the palm. You could sub lard. The coconut is a bit higher than I like, but try it and see. You're almost there. Make it 8 ounces larger and you have 2 lbs.

Coconut 6.7

Palm 8

Olive 17.3

HTH,

e

[latch]

i wanted to make an all veg soap, any other oil i can sub for palm?

[ChrisR]

Actually subing the cocoa butter for the palm will give you a very good bar of soap. Hardness: 6.2; Stable Lather: 7.0; Fluffy Lather: 4.4; Moisturizing: 7.0

For a 2 lb. batch:

Coconut Oil: 4 oz

cocoa Butter: 4 oz

Olive: 14 oz

Lye 3.02

Water (no discount): 7.42

[eugenia]

I don't use butters at higher than 10%. I don't find that it adds to the soap and I get less bubbles/lather. The iodine on that batch is in the 50's. I have a feeling it might be hard to work with. Cocoa butter is a lot harder than palm. Perhaps 10% cocoa butter and 15% crisco might work.

Chris, I am really, really, mean. I never, ever, give the lye or water amounts for a recipe. I feel that every recipe should be run through a lye calc and my method ensures that it is.

e

[ChrisR]

Well E you are entitled to be mean if you like and since the recipe was run through soapmaker calculator, I decided to list the water and lye. However, she can run it through her own lye calculator if she likes. The recipe, by the way, is not hard to work with, makes a nice hard bar with has lots of nice fluffy and stable lather and VERY moisturizing. I have several customers for this type of cocoa butter bar in the winter that would totally disagree with you that butters over 10% don't add something to the bar, but that's ok to each his own. I thought Latch ought to know that she could most definately sub out the palm with the cocoa butter and still get a great bar of soap!!

[Carrie]

I kept looking at chrisr recipe for a 2lb batch and it just kept coming out at 22oz no matter how many times I counted 14+4+4=22. Then I realized that chrisr is including the water and lye in the "2lb". I always thought that the batch size was based on the wieght of the oils, not the weight of the entire batch. To each his own.

Also, my .02 on the typing out the lye and water with your recipe. There are too many people that either will not use or can not figure out lye calcs. By giving the information you help to enable these people instead of teach. If we are helping enough to provide a recipe, we should also help enough to ensure they are capable of doing it themselves also. JMHO

[eugenia]

Also, my .02 on the typing out the lye and water with your recipe. There are too many people that either will not use or cannot figure out lye calcs

My point was this, I never trust the lye and water given in a recipe. I always run the numbers myself. I can't tell you how many times I've seen problems posted and when the recipe is provided, it turned out the amounts were off.

I was kidding when I said I was mean. I consider it a precautionary measure. If you are going to make CP or HP soap, you must learn have to use a lye calculator, IMHO.

e

[ChrisR]

'E' I knew you were kidding about being mean When I started CP soap, I had a very good friend give me a total recipe and teach me how to use the lye calculator to see where exactly she got the lye and water amounts. By doing that, I saw that the numbers she gave were correct and learned why they were correct. I also learned what the different oils and butters brought to a bar of soap and what I actually wanted out of my soap. My first bars of soap 3 years ago taught me my skin hated coconut oil at any percentage, but loved the goat's milk creaminess.

[latch]

ok i am a little confused, is chris 2 lb recipe safe?

[maryann]

I hope you don't mind me asking but.... I took Chris's recipe and plugged it into Sage's lye calc (to try to figure this all out). This is what the results were:

%excess fat lye /amount of oz

5 /3.02

6 /2.99

7 /2.96

8 / 2.92

She picked 3.02 for the lye... My question is why? why not pick 6, 7, or 8 (as it says :" 5% to 8% excess fat range: This is the range we use most often.")

I'm stuck on this whole recipe thing. I understand everything else except for one of the most important parts.

Also my scales measure to .1oz and this says lye should be 3.02. Where do I get a scale that measures the 2 (the hundredths spot) or do I round to 3.0? TIA as I'm clueless :rolleyes2

[latch]

yea i second that question maryann, i am clueless too!

[Carrie]

The c/p of the mms calc won't show up, but go there and plug in chrisr recipe then go to the bottom and change the batch size to 32oz then change it again to 48oz. It is really an eye opener to a beginning soaper.

This is where the larger the batch the safer it is. Here is a c/p from the MMS calc with chrisr recipe in it.

Lye Table (NaOH)

% excess fatLye Amount

(oz wt)03.1813.1523.1133.0843.0553.0262.9972.9682.9292.89102.86

As you can see a 0% superfat has 3.18oz of lye in it. 5%, which is the norm, has 3.02oz of lye. There is only .1 difference. On a scale that only measures in .1oz you could have 5% or 3% superfat and never know which.

Lye Table (NaOH)

% excess fatLye Amount

(oz wt)04.6214.5824.5334.4844.4454.3964.3574.3084.2594.21104.16

Now check out a full 2lb batch. There is larger room for error on your lye and still be safe. Now look at a 3lb batch.

Lye Table (NaOH)

% excess fatLye Amount

(oz wt)06.9316.8626.8036.7346.6656.5966.5276.4586.3896.31106.24

The normal 5% is 6.59oz lye. To get 0 superfat you'd have to put in 6.93oz of lye. That is a ton different on a scale from 6.59. The larger the batch the more room for error. If you added just .1oz too much lye on recipe #1 you could be hurt. If you add .1oz extra on the 3lb batch you are still in the 4% superfat range and still very safe.

I hope this helps.

[Carrie]

A 5% superfat is the normal range for superfatting. When you superfat you are adding more oils than the lye can saponify. 5% is a good number and keeps you away from the 0% dangerous if not exactly accurate.

The higher the superfat % the more moisurizing the bar, as there are more oils to leave on your skin. The more oils the more chance that some oils can go rancid and also the more oils the less bubbles and lather.

HTH

[maryann]

Thanks Carrie, even though I'm still not understanding. I'm thick so bare w/ me people as I'll be asking a lot of questions in the upcoming days. I'm going to read your posts again (a few times) and then plug the numbers into the calculator. Is one (calculator) better than the other for beginners. I got on one suggested on the board (a mods' post under soap making) and was so confused by all the info on it. MMS's seems simpler, is that the best one? I feel like I need to back up, that I'm missing something. Last week I asked for sites that explained the benfits of butters/oils thinking that would help. That's one of my problems I don't know what oils and butters to put together. Did I miss a thread explaining this? (I'm not too good at searches- I never use the right ketwords to bring up info, so I apologize if I'm asking what's been asked a million times before). I really appreciate the help

[ChrisR]

There really is no 'best' calculator, it's a matter of preference really. When I started out I used MMS lye calculator and it does a great job. Now I use soapmaker (http://www.soapmaker.ca/SMhome.htm) because I can use it in oz. or percentages and the graph lets me see what my combination of oils/butters will do to the soap. I can basically see at a glance if my soap will be too soft, moisturizing, etc.

Here are some sites where you can learn the benefits of oils and butters.

http://www.oshun.ca/info.html

http://www.augustus-oils.ltd.uk/products/fixed.htm

http://www.fromnaturewithlove.com/soap/Fixed.asp

It took me many, many batches of soap and almost 2 years to get the recipe I like. There are no bad oils and butters, it's a matter of what you want out of your soap, so it's all trial and error. Just be sure you check and recheck your lye calculator. Carrie did a great job of explaining and one day, after tons of reading and rereading, it will click and all make sense to you, I promise!!

[eugenia]

That's one of my problems I don't know what oils and butters to put together.

Chris gave you good links. You do need to learn wihat the oils do. To put it very simply, you want roughly 50% hard oils (oils that are semi-or solid at room temp) and 50% soft (liquid) oils. When creating a recipe, I look for cleansing, conditioning and hardness. Sometimes you may want more of one than the other. For example, when making a garden/kitchen soap, I use more cleansing oils than I normally do.

As far as the lye explanation and batch size, look at it this way. If you had a glass of water and a gallon of water and each were short one ounce, it would be much more noticeble with the glass than the gallon. Clear as mud?