Beeswax or Soy for Flawed 4627 Wax?

[cynthia3030]

Hello Everyone,

Well, this is my very first post. I tend to be long-winded so I will get right to the point. Just as a little background, I have been pouring candles, as a hobby, for many years. I am being urged by family and friends to sell candles and I truly enjoy the art of candlemaking. Here is my dilemma.

My last order of wax, the infamous IGI 4627, was seriously flawed in its formulation. The wax is too oily and I am having an extremely hard time finding a wick that is compatible. I have tried HTP, ECO, LX, Stablio, RRD, and zinc core in various sizes. I even burned the wax without any FO and the wax still smoked a lot then. The flames are far too high and flicker too much and the candles are smoking too much.

I spoke with the distributor to see if anyone else was having a problem with this particular lot of wax and they suggested I mix the 4627 wax with 25 percent soy. I am thinking about either beeswax as an additive or a smaller percent of soy.

Any and all suggestions, tips, and advice will be greatly appreciated. I realize I will have to perform additional testing, but a starting point would certainly be helpful and prevent me from throwing this wax out of the window. Of course, I have checked older posts but I couldn't find anything where this issue had been discussed. Please excuse me if I am covering old territory.

Thank you all very much for your input. (Warned you that I was long-winded and this is short.)

[HorseScentS]

Oh my gosh! Who's the distributor?

[cynthia3030]

I am glad you responded because I know that you are a big fan of 4627 and if there is a solutiion, then surely you have it. I would rather not name the distributor because it is not their fault. The distributor did tell me that as long as wax fell within certain numbers of the specifications on the MSDS, then it was okay to release the product for sale. Haven't you noticed over time different consistencies in your wax?

[HorseScentS]

I am glad you responded because I know that you are a big fan of 4627 and if there is a solutiion, then surely you have it. I would rather not name the distributor because it is not their fault. The distributor did tell me that as long as wax fell within certain numbers of the specifications on the MSDS, then it was okay to release the product for sale. Haven't you noticed over time different consistencies in your wax?

I've never tried blending my 4627 with another wax, but based on what I've read here the beeswax would tie up your scent throw, so I would use soy, like 415 or 464.

We need to know which distributor so we won't end up spending money we can't afford on a bad batch of wax, and it would help to know the batch number too.

So far I haven't noticed different consistencies in my wax.

[cynthia3030]

Good point. I will try getting the lot number tomorrow. I will let you know either way. My first post opens up Pandora's box.

A few other threads appeared regarding 4627 and soy usage at different percents. I have some 464 that I think I will try at 10 percent or so. It just seems logical that 25 percent would change the characteristics too much. Thanks for the info on the beeswax.

[ChandlerWicks]

I mixed 4627 70% with 415 30% last night & this morning there's cracks in the wax. 2" long across top & really long ones through out jar if that helps. I poured cool so it's not that. I'm trying to get rid of the oily, clear look of 4627, but keep the throw.

Back to the drawing board with lower mixes.

[HorseScentS]

Good point. I will try getting the lot number tomorrow. I will let you know either way. My first post opens up Pandora's box.

You needn't worry about that; on this forum if there's a bad batch of wax out there people post which distributor/supplier(s) is selling it and what the lot number is. That's one of the great things about this forum is we can warn each other about things like that, and it's the distributor/supplier's responsibility to deal with it.

Edited March 14, 2013 by HorsescentS

[emilyspoppy]

You needn't worry about that; on this forum if there's a bad batch of wax out there people post which distributor/supplier(s) is selling it and what the lot number is. That's one of the great things about this forum is we can warn each other about things like that, and it's the distributor/supplier's responsibility to deal with it.

Good Point!

I wish you had posted this in the General Candle Making Forum. It may have gotten more attention, I've found that fewer replies to postings are forthcoming in this forum.

I, of course, have no idea who is giving you advice on how you should try and "fix" crappy wax that they have sold you and don't offer any remedy other than to let you work it out on your own. I certainly hope it's not Peak! I would be embarrased to be writing this if they were.

I am aware of one company whose customer care, technical advisor and owner was so excusive and evasive in responding to an issue that was clearly their mistake, a civil action is warranted.

Obviously IGI has made a product that isn't performing properly, but being told by either the manufacturer or the distributor that you are going to have to "eat it" simply "bites" IMO.

Several years ago I purchased a number of cases of IGI-4630 of the same batch lot from a supplier who also failed to, IMO, respond properly. My problem was more minor and I believe the opposite of what you appear to be experiencing. My wax did not contain enough petrolatum. I was having to do re-pours and heat topping my containers. It was very frustrating, but the candles burned OK.

It sounds to me that your wax may have too much petrolatum in it's composition.

IN MY OPINION; I would add your overly "oily" 4627 to a wax that is most similar to it in composition, but lacks a large amount of petrolatum. That wax would be IGI-4794. I would start with a 10% / 90% blend and continue to increase the 4794 percentage until you obtain the result you are looking for. I'd start out working with just a pound or so of your offending wax until you get it right. Of course, keep notes on the ratios. It may take some now. The wax should cool between testings. Once you think it looks right, I'd pour a candle with one of your well known and better behaved FOs that you have had previous good results with. Dye it as you usually would and allow it to cure as normal.

If you are anxious to produce candles you may want to acquire some fresh 4627 from another supplier and fix your "diseased" wax "on the side", time permitting. I'd call a good company (Like Peak) explain your problem and ask them to check their batch numbers on their 4627 in stock. They too might appreciate a head's up on this problem. Perhaps they could turn around a shipment if they get some transported to them.

My hunch is you should be able to come very close to getting the same wax as properly processed 4627. Wicking and burning properties should be the same if you are careful. It may take some time to get the ratio right, but once you do, I'll bet you're back to smooth sailing on a wax you're familiar with.

A parasoy blend does not sound like something you are interested in working with. I wouldn't even consider using beeswax. I'd keep that fine wax for another use.

I am far from being an expert, but this just makes sense to me. 4794 holds a good fragrance load and throws well. I would not use any additives like Vybar or Stearic Acid. Both waxes are pre-blended.

Absorbing the extra "petro" should make the pillar/votive blend of 4794 a good good container blend. I'll bet it even maintains the one pour characteristic of 4627. It may turn out more like 4630, though! You might find you actually like it better!

Good luck! PLEASE let us know how things go.

Gotta go know! I'll be away from the board for awhile preparing my Peak order. $15% off all FO's is a sweet deal to me. Thanks Alan and team. Geez! I hope yor 4627 is "bug-free".

JMO/HTH

Dave @ Charlotte Hall Country Candles

Edited March 14, 2013 by emilyspoppy

[jeanie353]

I mixed 4627 70% with 415 30% last night & this morning there's cracks in the wax. 2" long across top & really long ones through out jar if that helps. I poured cool so it's not that. I'm trying to get rid of the oily, clear look of 4627, but keep the throw

I think the BCN PP success with that combo was at 75/25 using 415. Could have been 80/20.

ETA...It was poured at about 170ish. Just went from the Presto which was at 185 to pour pot, stirred and into the jar(s).

Edited March 14, 2013 by jeanie353

[ChandlerWicks]

No cracks?

I think the BCN PP success with that combo was at 75/25 using 415. Could have been 80/20.

ETA...It was poured at about 170ish. Just went from the Presto which was at 185 to pour pot, stirred and into the jar(s).

[jeanie353]

No cracks?

None. Did I not send you any of those? Slacked on that one, I guess! For that, I will redeem and you shall receive more tarts to test

[ChandlerWicks]

Cool Beans! Prezzies!

PMs need cleared out!

Edited March 14, 2013 by ChandlerWicks

[jeanie353]

Cool Beans! Prezzies!

PMs need cleared out!

Oops...OK

[cynthia3030]

Hello again to all.

Thanks to everyone for your very helpful suggestions. I really appreciate the help. You saved me a lot of time, money and frustration. Here is where I am now.

I poured these candles based on you alls suggestions.

4627 (14.4 oz or 90%) and 484 (1.6 oz or 10%) - 6% FO - couple drops of dye

4627 (14.4 oz or 90%) and 4794 (1.6 oz or 10%) - 6% FO - couple drops of dye

On a whim I opened another box of 4627 and poured a couple of candles without any FO or dye.

I will let the candles set for a while and then burn them. I can report that the candles are very pretty. I like the consistency and texture. The texture and appearance is how they are supposed to look. I am very anxious to do the test burns but I will wait and probably test tomorrow.

ChandlerWicks, it was awfully kind of you to pour a sample of the 4627 and soy formula before recommending it. That really helped me with a starting point.

Jeanie353, thank you so very much for furnishing the proportions and the pouring temps. That too was very helpful.

HorsescentS, thanks for your advice about the beeswax. I didn't have a chance to contact the supplier today to get the lot number for the wax, but I will do it tomorrow and let you know.

EmilysPioppy, where do I begin with you. You said I should have posted in another forum. From my observations, after chandlers develop and perfect their product, most of them seem to move on to other formums of interest to them, understandly so. Your explanation of the petrolatum (what I called "oil content") was right on the money. Your suggestion on fixing the problem also seems very logical. We will just have to wait and see.

I don't agree with you and HorsescentS that I should provide the supplier's name. It really wasn't his fault and I don't know what he could have done differently because it is an industry-wide policy that refunds and/or exchanges aren't made on wax, to my knowledge. If someone knows differently, please let me know.

I have learned a couple of important things from this experience and made a very big decision. More on my big decision in another posting. I don't multi-task very well anymore ... concentrate on and solve one problem at a time.

Again, thanks everybody. I will keep you advised of my success or lack thereof.

I

[cynthia3030]

I have to remember to proofread before I post and not after and to put on my eyeglasses when doing so.

Emilyspoppy .. excuse me.

Jeanie353 .. excuse me.

484 should be 464 but you all probably knew that.

[HorseScentS]

Providing the supplier's name doesn't mean it's their fault, it just means that they will resolve the problem by working with IGI or whatever distributor they bought the faulty wax from, and then they'll put a notice on their website to let everyone know that the problem was resolved.

The suppliers can afford to work these things out and they have ways of recouping their losses, but a struggling chandler, who buys a whole case of bad wax, can really get hurt, especially if they don't test burn their candles before selling them and the customers end up with a bad, or even dangerous, product.

Edited March 15, 2013 by HorsescentS

[cynthia3030]

Providing the supplier's name doesn't mean it's their fault, it just means that they will resolve the problem by working with IGI or whatever distributor they bought the faulty wax from, and then they'll put a notice on their website to let everyone know that the problem was resolved.

The suppliers can afford to work these things out and they have ways of recouping their losses, but a struggling chandler, who buys a whole case of bad wax, can really get hurt, especially if they don't test burn their candles before selling them and the customers end up with a bad, or even dangerous, product.

I understand what you are saying but I don't see it getting that far based upon only me voicing problems with the wax. As a matter of fact, I am not sure the distributor sees it as a problem. He said that no one else had expessed any concerns to him about the wax.

Frankly speaking, the supplier probably thinks I'm an inexperienced chandler that doesn't know how to properly work with the 4627 wax and the wax burned the way it did because of something I did incorrectly or something I didn't do . I have tons of notes and pictures to support my contention. I even have videos of the candles buring that I make to assist me when I document my results

I really don't see this situation going that far especially in light of the fact that IGI has ranges within their specifications. Apparebtly this batch was in the low range for passing quality control.

[HorseScentS]

I understand what you are saying but I don't see it getting that far based upon only me voicing problems with the wax. As a matter of fact, I am not sure the distributor sees it as a problem. He said that no one else had expessed any concerns to him about the wax.

Frankly speaking, the supplier probably thinks I'm an inexperienced chandler that doesn't know how to properly work with the 4627 wax and the wax burned the way it did because of something I did incorrectly or something I didn't do . I have tons of notes and pictures to support my contention. I even have videos of the candles buring that I make to assist me when I document my results

I really don't see this situation going that far especially in light of the fact that IGI has ranges within their specifications. Apparebtly this batch was in the low range for passing quality control.

I understand, but that puts me in the position of being afraid to buy another case of 4627 because any supplier I buy it from might be the supplier that sold you the bad wax.

If the supplier doesn't take your complaint seriously, that's his problem. All business owners know that the customer is always right, because if a customer is not satisfied they're going to tell at least 8 other people about it, which will end up costing the business more money in lost business than if they had just satisfied the customer by replacing or refunding the product.

But thanks for getting those batch numbers for us anyway, that will be a big help. :smiley2:

Edited March 15, 2013 by HorsescentS

[cynthia3030]

Here is the lot number for the 4627 wax that I feel had too much petrolaum (oil) in it:

1202254

The distributor says he only has a couple of cases of this wax left.

HTH

[HorseScentS]

Here is the lot number for the 4627 wax that I feel had too much petrolaum (oil) in it:

1202254

The distributor says he only has a couple of cases of this wax left.

HTH

Thanks, Cynthia! There must be more cases out there, so this will help a lot.

[cynthia3030]

Thanks, Cynthia! There must be more cases out there, so this will help a lot.

If you happen to come across some which is very doubtful, I will have the fix so don't worry.

[HorseScentS]

If you happen to come across some which is very doubtful, I will have the fix so don't worry.

Okay, great!

[cynthia3030]

Happy Saturday to all!

It is a miracle! I solved the problem wth the bad 4627 wax. I used a formula of 90% 4627 and 10% 4794. I am on my second burn and the candles are burning beautifully with no soot, no smoking, no tall flickering flames, no hang-up. I have burned them for about 20 hours in a 2.75 inch container using HTP 83 and LX 16 wicks.

I haven't burned the candles where I added the soy because I usually let soy cure longer than paraffin. The candles with the soy added though are pretty with a nice texture and consistency and no wet spots.

Remember I said I opened a fresh container of 4627 wax. Guess what? These candles are also burning very well and are not smoking. I didn't add any FO or dye.

Apparently this particular box of 4627 wax was deficient and I'm not sure what recourse, if any, that I have. I am going to read through old posts to see how others have dealt with this issue.

Thanks very much to everybody for your valuable input.

[HorseScentS]

Awesome! Thanks so much for sharing that fix with us. How's the HT on those candles? is it as strong as you'd get with just plain 4627?

[cynthia3030]

Awesome! Thanks so much for sharing that fix with us. How's the HT on those candles? is it as strong as you'd get with just plain 4627?

HorsescentS, to be perfectly honest I don't know. I have three candles going at the same time. I do smell something when I enter the room, but I don't have a clue where it is coming from. I was just so relieved to get the candles burning without causing a towering inferno and smoking so much, I figured I would deal with the HT later.

How do you like that gigantic flame on the HTP 126 when you first light it? The first time it happened to me, it scared the daylights out of me and it burned like that for about five minutes. Do I understand you to say that that's a characteristic of the HTP 126? They always start off with that huge flame?