bart70

Hi, This may sound like an odd question but it is something I have seen from time to time when testing Palm waxes (..and coming to think of it also when testing Soy) and relates to the formation of wick mushrooms. I can understand (or at least I think I can) the theories behind why particular combinations of wax, FO, dye will cause wick mushrooms. What I am having difficulty understanding is what causes wick mushrooms to come and then go during the candle's life. For example, a particular candle during testing may produce medium sized mushrooms on the first or second burn, then settle in and produce none for the duration of the candle life. Clearly the candle composition has not changed (FO load, wax type, dye etc...) so does anybody have the technical or scientific reasoning as to why? Is it more likely to be inconsistency in the wick itself? Would be interested to hear from others who have knowledge in this area. Bart

These look great!....and better still the pricing is reasonable. Would be interested in anything that fits the 226g metros. A minimum order of 500 is not an issue for us as we would be looking at a minimum of 1500-2000 units anyway. I have not done a lot of research on boxes yet - The local printer I use for our labels does a lot of specialised commercial labeling and may well have contacts in the packaging industry - I must follow it up with him as well. Bart

I guess if he is not going to keep stock of the Metro's themselves......He might as well not bother with the packaging... LOL We were only discussing metro packaging last night......Would be nice to see. Bart

I have made it my mission in recent months to find alternate suppliers for everything I need as part of an effective business continuity plan. I still have a couple of FO's to go so would be interested in pooling knowledge of others as to where I may find them - Maybe even bring in a bit extra and onsell. Bart

That is a good point - I have already had a batch of thin walled (easily broken) metro's from one of our candle suppliers. I managed to break several just taking the lids on and off :rolleyes2:rolleyes2 Bart

Yes....a great effort! He hails from a town not far from me. His family is ecstatic! I am not sure what candles he likes tho.. (Sorry....Had to try to keep it on topic for the purists! )

Hi Susan, It would depend on the motivation for importing. If the motivation was to secure your own supply when our suppliers have none then it makes sense to import a full container (12 metric tonne), keep 4-6 tonne for yourself, then sell the rest off cheap to recoup the capital outlay on the full container load. You end up getting your own wax cheaper, secure your supply, and hopefully don't get left with a larger quantity of wax than you would want. The secret is to ensure you import the same wax as one of the local suppliers (quite easy to work out) so people know they are getting a similar product to what they are already using, and sell it cheaper than is currently available. The power of this magnifies when you get several individuals pooling together because the 'keep' quantity becomes larger. Four people wanting 2 tonne each would only leave 4 tonne to be 'sold off' to recoup capital. The risk is only 1 tonne per person which is much better than the scenario of a sole importer where the risk could be several tonne. The same theory would work for anything that is in demand with supply issues - Metro Jars come to mind. Very hard to get and nearly always OOS. My theory is simple - Our current suppliers use us as a 'warehouse' because we end up stockpiling when stock is available so we do not get caught out when they dont have it. When there is limited supply from other sources they can exploit this by making shipments bigger but less regular, knowing that it will not sit long in their premises because we all 'jump' on it in large quantities to stockpile it. They recoup their costs quick, but at the expense of those who cannot afford the capital to stockpile. If I am going to be a pseudo warehouse for the big suppliers....Why not take advantage of buying at true wholesale rates and import it myself to lower my own costs, then pass the excess product on at a reduced rate to clear invested capital? All sounds good in theory....I have some of the supply contacts, trucking & storage available to me - Just need the $$ to make it all happen :cheesy2: Bart

Richard/Jonsie, We sure need to do something about the glassware situation in particular, and supply in general. You are very correct Richard - the situation in Oz for supply is terrible, and what is even worse is the arrogance of the suppliers. We ended up terribly over-capitalised because we were becoming 'warehouses' so we could ensure supplies. Is not a good situation when you are stockpiling 6 months worth of supplies because suppliers are too unreliable. My stockists expect me to supply them when they order....not 6 months later then materials become available. They simply go elsewhere....Shame we can't! (yet...) The suppliers continually talk about not being able to keep stock because they do not know what we want.....It would not take a rocket scientist to work out what is needed with the glassware, and I would think that when in the candlemaking business, wax itself would be a no brainer!! Nearly every business journal and book I have read says that for a true competitive, stable and healthy trade environment to exist there must be a minimum of 3 players in the game. Our situation, with only 2, proves how true this is. If only I had a spare $100K sitting around......It would be interesting to see how 4 containers of wax and glassware dumped into the market and sold at cost would change the current market dynamics. I have the contacts, storage and drive to do it - just need the cash :cheesy2: On the glassware note - How many people are waiting on Metro's? Size & quantity? Are we better off approaching one of the large glassware importers and have them source and import a bulk quantity for us with their next order? We might end up paying a bit more in distribution freight, but we would know we have them. If we are forced to stockpile from our suppliers, why not stockpile at wholesale prices? Just some thoughts.....the logistics at the next level start to get difficult....but if we don't investigate the possibilities we will never know. PM me if there is any interest. Bart

Same thing happens around me. I have people nearby advertising they will make "any candle shape, size, color, fragrance that you request". The stories they tell people about candles at the markets each weekend are just downright wrong and defy science and physics. Makes me wonder how well their candles burn? I actually don't have to wonder as I know people who have bought them and cannot understand why ours burn so differently. I guess that tells me something....:smiley2: I don't try to compete - Truth is if you are doing it properly you cannot without cutting corners. We continue to build our market share by other means. There will always be a market for "cheap" and people who do not appreciate paying more for a safer quality product will continue to buy on price alone. True candle lovers will seek out the quality products and stick by them. The secret is to find your niche market and cater for it.......and try to forget about the ones that are dubious. I know it is hard sometimes but in reality is is all you can really do. :smiley2: Rob

Thanks All, I sent the emails about 3 weeks ago....Will resend and see how I go, otherwise might drop them a PM via facebook. Cheers, Bart70

Thanks everyone, Might have to try the phone call......Not as easy as picking up the phone when you are on the other side of the globe and need to deal with timezones There have been a few cases on various forums (not candle related) of people who have gone out of business but because their web hosting is paid up their site remains active with 'nobody home'. Didn't want to be chasing up a dead end. Thanks again - will keep trying them. Bart70

Hi, Can anybody who may be closer to NG advise if they are still in business? I have tried emailing them with enquiries about sending over some bulk FO's but have not had any response. Am not sure if they are still trading? Thanks in advance....:smiley2: Bart70

As a comparison, we are paying $90 for 50lb (22.5kg). Given our currency is parity with the US Dollar (or extremely close to it) we are paying more than double what you guys are paying. Remember, the stockists here are paying the same price for it (in US $) as your US stockists when they purchase from the manufacturer. Bart70

I am having difficulty understanding the justification for the rise in Australia. I have personally investigated importing wax and know it is all priced in US dollars, including shipping costs. Over the last 4 months we have seen the Aussie dollar surge against the US dollar, which equates to a drop in price in US dollars of around 10%. Our $$ is hovering around parity ($ for $ with the US) at the moment and has been for many weeks. We have just had a $5 price rise, last shipment before Xmas saw a $2.50 rise, equating to a $7.50 rise (or approx 10%) in a few months, all the time our currency is getting stronger and buying more in US $$. This equates to an approx 20% price rise in 3 months in the US $ price when the 10% drop due to the strong dollar is put into the equation. Have our US counterparts seen a 20% rise in wax prices in the last 3 months? If not then I might be tempted to think that the reduction caused by the strong $$ is not being passed onto the customer at all. With only 2 suppliers (who regularly run out of wax for weeks at a time) we can only hope that more competition enters the market to even it out. Interestingly, many smart business publications I have read have suggested that any market needs a minimum of 3 players to keep it honest. Perhaps there is some truth in the theories they publish. Bart70

This is a very popular line taken by a stockist of palm pillars in my local area - She tells everyone they are soy to take advantage of its popularity (Despite the company who makes them saying they are not). Have not been able to find a feathering soy wax anywhere.....:rolleyes2:rolleyes2 Either way, the ones pictured do look good regardless of what they are made from. Rob

True.....Thankfully I am not a fan of PB! Would have really made me madder if I had liked it! Bart70

Consider yourself lucky.... Here in Australia we are paying $135 for it! Given that our $$ is near parity with the US $$ that means basically the same amount in your currency. Bart70

Thanks for the responses. Was aware of dipped candles - we have a couple of local stores who sell them but they are unfragranced - the dipping is used to provide a visual effect on the surface. Would be hard to dip in crystal wax and still get the pattern I would think? If it was possible I guess dodgy makers could load up a batch of highly scented wax and dip them. Have not seen this before but i guess it is possible. Some of her candles had '2nd pours' that were very obvious (non crystalised wax an inch down the candle sides where it has run between the contracted pillar and the side of the mold). They did not look very professional in this regard. Those who have used crystal waxes will know how different the plain wax looks to when it is crystalised. Others were just plain unbottomed at all - with a crystal pattern, indents, void holes etc in the bottoms. All were wrapped in cellophane with a very tiny warning label on the bottom ( I have good eyesight and it took me a minute or two to work out what it said). I checked their website and noticed a section where you can pick any fragrance. color, and size combination and they will make it. Makes me also wonder how well it would be tested? She is the only person in the area selling palm candles at the markets so I guess she has no competition. In saying that, even if I were interested in the market scene I would not be able to sell at her prices so I guess people are getting what they are paying for in the end. Bart70

Was at a local market recently and stopped by a candlemakers stand. After a couple of minutes the lady on the stand started talking abut her candles. I gave no suggestions that we also made candles (we sell predominantly into retail outlets outside the area hence she did not know me). The candles were mostly crystal palm wax it what look like starburst and feather, Got the usual talk about the different patterns and how it is a characteristic of the wax that makes them. I picked one up to smell the bottom (as I usually do as the fragrance is a little stronger on the 'bottomed surface). I immediately noticed that many were not 'bottomed' at all - each to their own as this does not worry me if people choose not to finish in this way. What struck me was her comments when I did this. She told me that smelling the bottoms is a story fabricated by people who do not mix fragrance into all their wax, and the fragrance sinks to the bottom - hence they like you to smell the bottom of the candle. She also commented that most candlemakers only fragrance the wax on the outside of the candle and the wax in the centre is unfragranced I just smiled and nodded (was not going to get into a debate on how or why)., but the following 2 points came to mind. Firstly - pillars are moulded upside down....So any fragrance falling to the bottom would actually be in the top of the candle....Wouldn't it? Secondly, how would it be possible to pour a pillar so that you poured fragranced wax around the outside (remembering these are crystal palm with a pattern) and non fragrance wax in the centre? I am unable to see how her comments were legitimate - happy to accept it may be possible. Can anybody elaborate? Thoughts? Bart70

I think we have a spammer in our midst.......

For Aussies, I found a link that gives the suitability for the different types based on the Australian Standards. http://www.fpaa.com.au/information/docs/Portable%20Fire%20Extinguisher%20Guide.pdf This pretty well explains it - for those outside Australia you should be able to find your countries standards on the internet. The same principles will apply, just the way they are colored or classified will change. Bart70

You are correct....it uses foam to smother the fire, but the foam is created by a chemical reaction of the chemical in the extinguisher and the fire - hence the term wet chemical for these types to distinguish them from what is traditionally known as a foam extinguisher. A traditional foam extinguisher uses foam like washing up detergent and relies on the heavy landing of the water base to spread the foam. across the surface. If the surface is already very hot (as in an oil fire) you get the boil over. Wet Chemical types will not do this. Either way you have the right one Judy.....We all hope that none of us ever have the need to use one. Bart70

Judy, You are correct - a "K" extinguisher is what is classified as an "F" in Australia. The standards vary a little from country to country. They are referred to as Wet Chemical. Do not confuse this with a foam extinguisher however - standard foam is definitely not suitable for hot oil fires. I have see the result and it was spectacular. Foam extinguishers have a water carrier with a surfactant (special detergent) added. These are US Class B, or in Australia either a blue or red with blue band extinguisher The K or F is a wet chemical types (potassium acetate) extinguisher designed not to cause deep fat fires to flare up when hit with it. Definitely stick with the K or F, or dry powder if you want a backup for a fire blanket. Stay away from wet foam :smiley2: Bart70

Fire types are divided into the following classes: Class A Ordinary Combustibles Class B Flammable and combustible liquids Class C Flammable gases Class D Combustible metals Class E Electrically energised equipment Class F Cooking oils and fats Our waxes fall into the Class F category as they are effectively an oil or fat when melted. A foam extinguisher (Used predominantly on Class B fires) is considered only partially effective for a Class F fire due to it containing water and creating a possible boil over. A web search on fire extinquisher types will provide the full details of what type is best for which fire type. A Class F is the one for oils & fats (wax) which is red with a yellow colored band. Personally, for the amount of wax melted at one time in my operation, a good quality fire blanket to smother the oil fire, and a dry chemical (Class ABE - Red with White band) extinguisher to knock down other items that may have caught on (without spattering the wax) would be my choice. Firefighting would be a 2 pronged approach - smother wax with blanket, mop up any other items with the Class ABE. If I had large wax quantities with a large surface area I would back it up with Class F extinguishers as well in case the blanket is not sufficient to smother the larger surface area/quantiites. HTH Bart70

Apologies if it offended....it was not intended to. We feel the same frustrations and pain as you do. You implied you have choice - I gave my opinion and reasoning as to why I believe I dont. It was not aimed at you personally and I apologise again if you took offence to it. Bart70