C3 vs 464 advice

[RichardLOZ]

That have never actually been in stock as far as I can recall. In any case the ECO which are on their site are spooled and not primed which would be a total PITA for jar candles.

Their CDN wicks are not good either. I have purchased when needed in emergency, however at least 50% pull out of the tab when placing into the jars. I got pretty sick and tired of burning myself with hot glue

Richard

[KoalaGirl]

Im over metro's so if anyone is wanting ncs 226 gr clear metro's, I have about 5 or 6 doz {I notice they are out of them again}. I live on the central coast nsw. Will sell them for cheap if you want to pick them up.

[bart70]

Im over metro's so if anyone is wanting ncs 226 gr clear metro's, I have about 5 or 6 doz {I notice they are out of them again}. I live on the central coast nsw. Will sell them for cheap if you want to pick them up.

PM on its way.....

[Tribalvixen]

I just got my first order from candlesupply and i have to say that I am so impressed with their packaging. I think I will be ordering from them for any glassware from now on. I got 1kg of C3 to try. not bad shipping time too...ordered and deposited the money into bank monday...left them on tuesday delivered today...beats the hell out of waiting 7 days for bulb jars and considering they are frosted (they had no clear left) they are definatly thicker than the acs frosted jars. Am looking forward to playing with C3 on sunday.

[bart70]

That have never actually been in stock as far as I can recall. In any case the ECO which are on their site are spooled and not primed which would be a total PITA for jar candles.

I have never seen the ECO's or the CSN in stock at all despite them being on their website. They originally got CSN in tea light sizes only. When we enquired about the larger sizes they told us they would unlikely stock them as "They are not suitable for natural waxes in sizes other than tea lights....".

CDN wicks are not good either. I have purchased when needed in emergency, however at least 50% pull out of the tab when placing into the jars. I got pretty sick and tired of burning myself with hot glue

I have had this issue regularly with ACS wick in palm containers - the higher temps melts the wax around the crimp and the tab lets go! Very frustrating!!

Is this the only issue you have seen with NCS CDN wicks? Have you noticed any performance difference between their CDN's and those you may have gotten from elsewhere?

I am thinking about maybe getting some in from overseas just in case it is the local wicks that are causing my problems. Will be a pain but at least they do not weigh much!

Bart

Edited March 8, 2012 by bart70

[minx]

NCS have been oos on eco wicks since I started making candles in mid 09...

You would think it would be better for business to not have them listed at all!!

[RichardLOZ]

I am thinking about maybe getting some in from overseas just in case it is the local wicks that are causing my problems. Will be a pain but at least they do not weigh much!

Bart

I have spoken or emailed with Ginger from Precision Wicking in regards to getting some CDN (Stabilo KST) wicks sent across. If I remember the quote off the top of my head is worked out at approximately $750 USD for 5000 wicks in 5 sizes of 1000 each + shipping. It was not actually that much of a saving compared with buying locally. I guess if you order FO from the US you could have them ship wicks at the sdame time, if the particular supplier stocks the wicks you are after.

Richard

[bart70]

Thanks Richard,

My problem is that for the candles that I do use CDN with, I do not know if they are "real" CDN or "copies of CDN" as there is rumour around (true or untrue) that one supplier in Aus is having copies made and selling them as CDN. I would love to enter into an agreement to get some bulk CDN from overseas, but am worried that I might find they are different and end up with a heap of wicks I cannot use.

I might try some HTP wicks in the interim and maybe buy a sampler pack of CDN, CD, and CSN from overseas and see how they burn. Is going to slow down my testing program somewhat, but thats candlemaking I guess LOL!

Cheers,

Bart

[bart70]

Hi all,

USA (Universal Soy Additive) is mentioned a bit in this thread, Does anybody know where it can be purchased in Australia?

I know that ACS have UA (Universal Additive) that they say in their blurb is great for mixing with 464 to make a tart/votive wax and also mentions how it prevents mottling (always thought that mottling was an issue with parrafin more than soy....but happy to stand corrected) so am not convinced that this is the USA and more likely to be UA that is normally used in soy.

Anybody know if this is the genuine USA or know where we may be able to get USA from should we want it?

Bart

[RichardLOZ]

Hi all,

USA (Universal Soy Additive) is mentioned a bit in this thread, Does anybody know where it can be purchased in Australia?

Bart

Like most things, I believe that this is just another item that we may well need to source overseas. At this rate, may as well just up and move the business to the US. At least shipping would be somewhat cheaper

Richard

[bart70]

Like most things, I believe that this is just another item that we may well need to source overseas. At this rate, may as well just up and move the business to the US. At least shipping would be somewhat cheaper

Richard

Am hearing you Richard!

Unfortunately our suppliers won't listen to those who want the choice. There is good money for them at the moment in selling to those who don't care for excellence as the 'get rich quick' movement gains momentum. In the meantime those who seek excellence have to import the products to achieve it.

The bubble will burst one day......might take a while but it will burst as the industry matures.

Does not help us any now tho!

Bart

[RichardLOZ]

'get rich quick' movement gains momentum. In the meantime those who seek excellence have to import the products to achieve it.

The bubble will burst one day......might take a while but it will burst as the industry matures.

Bart

Yep I hear you also. The movement is well and truly alive on FB and they seem to be breeding like fleas

I got into a wonderful argument a week or so ago in regards to testing which was quite interesting as you could well imagine. There were a few people who were sensible and appreciated the advice and seem to be taking it, but the same loud know it all crowd piped up as usual, telling us all that there is more than one way to skin the cat so to speak.

I dont know whether I find it amusing or sad now, but I cant help myself from throwing in the odd comment.............LOL

Richard

[Stella1952]

I have tested other veggie oils as "appearance" additives instead of, and in addition to, USA (distilled monoglycerides). There are a couple I have found that worked as well as USA in helping to control frosting and promoting smoother texture and tops. The best results I got were when I combined them (USA + the oil), but those results were only slightly better than using the oil alone.

Rather than beat your brains out looking for USA, I suggest you experiment with small amounts of some common soaping oils to see which help. I will say that the CO I tried (refined, bleached, deodorized, 72°F MP) was a flop at any amount. When I test, I start with 1 teaspoonful/PP of the oil and go up to 1 Tablespoonful/PP. If it doesn't make any difference within that range, try another one. Don't assume that just because a refined product doesn't work (like the CO I tested) that an unrefined one or a fractionated product might not have different results and vice versa.

I made testers in 4 oz. containers (3 oz. wax). If the additive seemed to do well with that size, I tested again in a larger container. I used no dye and 1 oz. of a FO whose properties are well-known to me in my wax. Melt, pour temps & wicking, all well-established for the containers and wax I'm testing. That way, since I am using everything that is a "known quantity" to me, any changes in CT, HT or appearance are due to the additive. HTH & good luck!! :-)

[minx]

Like most things, I believe that this is just another item that we may well need to source overseas. At this rate, may as well just up and move the business to the US. At least shipping would be somewhat cheaper

Richard

What gets me is, how do others here in Aus do it?? Where are they learning, or are they just putting any wick in and going for it?? I've looked over FB and it there are a few candle sellers out there. (Soy ones) They MUST have or be having the same issues we are???

[bart70]

What gets me is, how do others here in Aus do it?? Where are they learning, or are they just putting any wick in and going for it?? I've looked over FB and it there are a few candle sellers out there. (Soy ones) They MUST have or be having the same issues we are???

You hit it on the head......for many it is the the wick that they are told to use by other ill informed persons, or many who claim to 'test' simply burn one or two wicks to see they don't catch fire then proceed to use these in all 50 FO's that they proudly tell everyone they use. I have been personally attacked for suggesting that I use 4 wick sizes or types to wick a range of 9 FO's in one size candle to get them right. This is simply too much work for them and they will openly tell you they dont have time for that. Sorta indicates to me how well they test their products when they openly post on forums asking others how long their candle will burn for so they tell their customers.

From the candles I have seen and purchased, many of them are having the same issues as us, but whilst the community in general does not know the difference between a carbon shroom and a " fragrance ball" they will continue to sell them by the dozen at the local markets. Why would candlemakers strive for the perfect product when they are able to sell rubbish and make good money without the effort?

While ever the is no drive from the candlemakers to have diversity and choice, the suppliers have no motivation to provide it, hence those who want to engineer their candles to 'work' have to resort to sourcing themselves. The candle suppliers are run off their feet with business at the moment and struggle to keep up. It is also in their best interest to make candlemaking look as enticing as possible so it is often protrayed as easy to do by them. You rarely hear them talk about engineering issues out of candles.

I also does not help when the big names in the candle making game who mass produce and market candles nationally in the retail sphere are also producing candles that shroom madly, burn smoky and soot up the glassware. People see this as the 'norm' and dont expect any different after a while.

In saying this, not everyone is like this. I have met some wonderful comitted candlemakers who are very aware of quality and how to achieve and maintain it. Many of these have been in it for a while (possibly before it was seen as a get rich quick scheme) and understand the art and science behind it. I communicate with some of these people on a regular basis off forums because I know they understand and the advice we often share is invaluable. The power of association can be extremely elevating and much can be learned this way. :smiley2:

Bart

[RichardLOZ]

Minx

I would be very careful of paying too much attention to some of the people on FB.

or are they just putting any wick in and going for it??

This sums it up exactly for a large % of those on FB I'm afraid. I read some of the FB pages and very occasionally post and when I do quite often get jumped on for my comments. I don't have too much time I am afraid for people who think they have all of the answers and do not like to listen to other people opinions. This is what I love about this forum, as people are helpful providing that you give enough information for them to work with to assist you.

Richard

[minx]

Yes, this forum is trully a great place to learn, and I am sure we will all get there in the end

[bart70]

I have tested other veggie oils as "appearance" additives instead of, and in addition to, USA (distilled monoglycerides).

Stella, have you found that USA and similar products can influence shrooming or have found they are more of a direct influence on frosting and appearance type issues?

My understanding about USA and the like is that it effects crystal formation which is more about looks than burn, but happy to admit I am wrong.

I used no dye and 1 oz. of a FO whose properties are well-known to me in my wax. Melt, pour temps & wicking, all well-established for the containers and wax I'm testing. That way, since I am using everything that is a "known quantity" to me, any changes in CT, HT or appearance are due to the additive. HTH & good luck!! :-)

Yep.....This is the reason why I don't really want to play too much with additives at this point in time - not until I get a better grasp of the wax on its own otherwise I am just going to confuse myself with data for which I have no sound reference.

I am thinking of trying HTP wicks next....They are available to me so might as well do some comparisons.

Bart

[Stella1952]

have you found that USA and similar products can influence shrooming or have found they are more of a direct influence on frosting and appearance type issues?

Bart, I haven't noticed that the USA I use causes or reduces shrooming.

It certainly stands to reason that it could have an effect since the causes of mushrooming have to do with the wick not burning efficiently due to a number of reasons: incombustable or uncombusted materials in the wax (or anything added to the wax) or a wick that isn't burning the wax efficiently (either too quickly or not quickly enough), too hot or not hot enough, a wick stance that's too straight - all can contribute to carbon building up at the tip of the wick.

Since you are trying to establish a foundation of knowledge for C3, it makes good sense that you might wish to wait before deciding to try any additives.

[jonsie]

Well I have finally got around to trying the C3.

Hey Richard, I appreciate you sharing your experience with such detail. I have been curious about C-3 but could not justify the cost of having shipped across the country. Was is simple curiosity that got you to try it or are you getting fed up with 464/palm?

Regarding mushrooming: In the absense of a photo, whether this is any real concern depends on how we're defining problematic mushrooms. If the *mushrooms* appear as 3 little balls at the tip of the wick that are not more than twice as large as the strand of the wick they are on, this isn't a wrist-slitter. If, however, the little balls are coagulating into a larger mass of carbon that's glowing and increasing the heat in the container (aka the *fragrance balls* touted by morons to make the throw on their candles so special), that needs action.

Haha... "fragrance balls"...

And I do like the description of the difference between the types of shrooms. I was aware that some shrooms are simply the little cotton strands fraying from cutting the wick, but never thought to identify it as having produced its own shroom shape. But looking back now I do see the difference.

That carbon ball on the pink candle would near qualify for our new Australian Carbon Tax! (Aussies will understand this as it is a hot political issuer here at present). Would make the "fragrance ball" advocates drool at the mouth!

Lol, had a good chuckle with that one!

USA (Universal Soy Additive) is mentioned a bit in this thread, Does anybody know where it can be purchased in Australia?

I know that ACS have UA (Universal Additive) that they say in their blurb is great for mixing with 464 to make a tart/votive wax and also mentions how it prevents mottling (always thought that mottling was an issue with parrafin more than soy....but happy to stand corrected) so am not convinced that this is the USA and more likely to be UA that is normally used in soy.

Anybody know if this is the genuine USA or know where we may be able to get USA from should we want it?

Bart

I don't know if it is "genuine" USA, but I had asked ACS back in December if their UA was vegetable based and they said it is.

I would be very careful of paying too much attention to some of the people on FB.

Amen to that! Just like what Bart said, you will get smacked for disagreeing with anyone on there. It's a scary time in Australia candle making because sooooo many people do the 10% FO load and the same wick in each candle. And if you suggest testing each combination of glassware, wick and FO%, then you get vilified.

As for CD wicks, I ordered 100 of each size in CD 14, CD 16, CD 18, CD 20 if any of y'all want me to post some to you.

[bart70]

As for CD wicks, I ordered 100 of each size in CD 14, CD 16, CD 18, CD 20 if any of y'all want me to post some to you.

Might consider taking you up on that offer. Am at my wits end trying to work out which way to jump next. Got a very hectic week this week and next week is not looking much better but might drop you a line when I get a chance to get back on the candle train again.

Bart